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08-07-2004
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Culture, Aesthetics and Fashion Discussion
Quote:
Originally posted by faust@Jul 8th, 2004 - 10:09 am


Sidenote: It is amazing how NYC is perceived to be so avant-garde, when in reality it's nothing compared to let's say Tokyo or even Paris. Indie fashion is only a niche here. I think that the European and Japanese tourists keep the indies afloat in NYC much more than the native New Yorkers.

true...the NYC scene..especially downtown...was very very very avant garde in the eighties and early nineties...but i think it moved with the art scene...the art scene here is really dead...i think it's very interesting in london right now as well as the cities you mentioned faust...

my parents just returned from europe and were going on and on..about how nobody was 'dressed' anymore...they are not fashion people...but they enjoy good style...and they said that they felt that europe had lost some of its flair...that things had changed...

...

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08-07-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by softgrey+Jul 8th, 2004 - 11:14 am--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (softgrey @ Jul 8th, 2004 - 11:14 am)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Quote:
Originally posted by Plumour@Jul 8th, 2004 - 12:32 am
<!--QuoteBegin-softgrey
Quote:
@Jul 7th, 2004 - 8:08 pm
...my favorite... * *

the white dress is totally YOU
...i know....

you guys are really getting to know my likes and dislikes now...especially you plum...

runner...A stopped carrying womenswear...i don't know if it's sold anywhere in NYC...i don't think so... i've never seen it myself... [/b][/quote]
exactly, and that is a stark example of what I mentioned about NYC. A were FORCED to become an all men's store because thier women's lines, which included AV Hash, Ann Demeulemeester, Boudicca, Odette Bombaider, Sophia Kokosolaki, etc. did not sell.

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08-07-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by softgrey+Jul 8th, 2004 - 12:19 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (softgrey @ Jul 8th, 2004 - 12:19 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-faust@Jul 8th, 2004 - 10:09 am


Sidenote: It is amazing how NYC is perceived to be so avant-garde, when in reality it's nothing compared to let's say Tokyo or even Paris. Indie fashion is only a niche here. I think that the European and Japanese tourists keep the indies afloat in NYC much more than the native New Yorkers.

true...the NYC scene..especially downtown...was very very very avant garde in the eighties and early nineties...but i think it moved with the art scene...the art scene here is really dead...i think it's very interesting in london right now as well as the cities you mentioned faust...

my parents just returned from europe and were going on and on..about how nobody was 'dressed' anymore...they are not fashion people...but they enjoy good style...and they said that they felt that europe had lost some of its flair...that things had changed...

... [/b][/quote]
I am taking this off topic but i'd agree with your parents to an extent softgrey. Actually I think its also a lot to do with stores like gap - lots & lots of cheap extremely casual sports type clothes that are easy to wear & can be thrown away. People don't want to wear skirts & blouses or, in the case of the guys, they don't want to wear smart trousers or shoes. they want to wear baggy comabt trosers & fleece tops & trainers - its a uniform. If I think of the way my parents generation dressed, or their parents before them, they had fewer clothes but better quality ones. I was reading a book recently about seaside towns in the Uk & there were pictures from the 50's and 60's of normal people on holiday & they were impeccably dressed in lovely summer dresses & smart summer coats. These were average people , not wealthy ones. I must say that I think this trend towards relaxed dressing is heavily influenced by the US - I suppose leisure-wear started in the US anyway. it has its pros and its cons like everything else though.

its interesting I think!!

The japanese are so well dressed!!

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09-07-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by helena+Jul 8th, 2004 - 11:48 am--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (helena @ Jul 8th, 2004 - 11:48 am)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Quote:
Originally posted by softgrey@Jul 8th, 2004 - 12:19 pm
<!--QuoteBegin-faust
Quote:
@Jul 8th, 2004 - 10:09 am


Sidenote: It is amazing how NYC is perceived to be so avant-garde, when in reality it's nothing compared to let's say Tokyo or even Paris.* Indie fashion is only a niche here.* I think that the European and Japanese tourists keep the indies afloat in NYC much more than the native New Yorkers.*


true...the NYC scene..especially downtown...was very very very avant garde in the eighties and early nineties...but i think it moved with the art scene...the art scene here is really dead...i think it's very interesting in london right now as well as the cities you mentioned faust...

my parents just returned from europe and were going on and on..about how nobody was 'dressed' anymore...they are not fashion people...but they enjoy good style...and they said that they felt that europe had lost some of its flair...that things had changed...

...
I am taking this off topic but i'd agree with your parents to an extent softgrey. Actually I think its also a lot to do with stores like gap - lots & lots of cheap extremely casual sports type clothes that are easy to wear & can be thrown away. People don't want to wear skirts & blouses or, in the case of the guys, they don't want to wear smart trousers or shoes. they want to wear baggy comabt trosers & fleece tops & trainers - its a uniform. If I think of the way my parents generation dressed, or their parents before them, they had fewer clothes but better quality ones. I was reading a book recently about seaside towns in the Uk & there were pictures from the 50's and 60's of normal people on holiday & they were impeccably dressed in lovely summer dresses & smart summer coats. These were average people , not wealthy ones. I must say that I think this trend towards relaxed dressing is heavily influenced by the US - I suppose leisure-wear started in the US anyway. it has its pros and its cons like everything else though.

its interesting I think!!

The japanese are so well dressed!! [/b][/quote]
I think the problem (yes, it's a problem) goes much deeper than that, Helena. US has never nurtured culture to be accessible to the masses. You must remember who founded this country and who were the majority of people that came here - puritans, peasants, workers. A century ago these were still a lower class (and I don't mean it in a condescending way, but in a historical way). These people were never TAUGHT the value of beauty, and they still aren't. It is a terrible, terrible oversight. I went through a public education system in New York City (not in Ohio, mind you), and it was absolutely terrible, valueless, careless, qualityless education. Also, reference the kinds of stores that are in American malls - they are not H&M or Mango or Zara (affordable, yet somewhat stylish) - but Gap and Abercrombie. Even the aforementioned stores sell crap in the US, yet good stuff in Europe. When we were in Seville we dressed my wife head to toe and more in Mango (they were having a sale) in stylish clothes - for under 100 Euros. My point is that in Europe style is accessible. In the US - it's either Gap or Barneys for the people who live outside of NYC. In Europe people will simply refuse to dress the way Americans do because beauty is instilled in them as a value. It is not so in America. At least these have been my observations...

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10-07-2004
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Quote:
Even the aforementioned stores sell crap in the US, yet good stuff in Europe
thats so true, my sister says that Zara US is absolutely not half as 'fresh' as Zara Europe, its all up to local buyers taste and mass market commercial data.

back on topic, this may be one of AVH's best collection to date.
where could i catch the rest of the collection?

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10-07-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by runner@Jul 10 2004, 06:54 AM
Lena,

http://www.style.com/fashionshows/collecti...te/thumb/AVHASH
faust, I've got the latest info from Anne Valerie Hash.
now they do not sell in NYC, but in Boston Washintown San Fransisco.
as for mens collection, it's available only in Japan right now.
[snapback]310447[/snapback]
In Japan, naturally


I don't know about washington, but I would guess that in Boston it would hang in Louis, and in SanFran, Cielo would carry it - both stores are cool. I guess A was the only store that carried her.

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14-07-2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faust,Jul 9 2004, 11:04 AM
true...the NYC scene..especially downtown...was very very very avant garde in the eighties and early nineties...but i think it moved with the art scene...the art scene here is really dead...i think it's very interesting in london right now as well as the cities you mentioned faust...

my parents just returned from europe and were going on and on..about how nobody was 'dressed' anymore...they are not fashion people...but they enjoy good style...and they said that they felt that europe had lost some of its flair...that things had changed...

...
I am taking this off topic but i'd agree with your parents to an extent softgrey. Actually I think its also a lot to do with stores like gap - lots & lots of cheap extremely casual sports type clothes that are easy to wear & can be thrown away. People don't want to wear skirts & blouses or, in the case of the guys, they don't want to wear smart trousers or shoes. they want to wear baggy comabt trosers & fleece tops & trainers - its a uniform. If I think of the way my parents generation dressed, or their parents before them, they had fewer clothes but better quality ones. I was reading a book recently about seaside towns in the Uk & there were pictures from the 50's and 60's of normal people on holiday & they were impeccably dressed in lovely summer dresses & smart summer coats. These were average people , not wealthy ones. I must say that I think this trend towards relaxed dressing is heavily influenced by the US - I suppose leisure-wear started in the US anyway. it has its pros and its cons like everything else though.

its interesting I think!!

The japanese are so well dressed!! [/quote]
I think the problem (yes, it's a problem) goes much deeper than that, Helena. US has never nurtured culture to be accessible to the masses. You must remember who founded this country and who were the majority of people that came here - puritans, peasants, workers. A century ago these were still a lower class (and I don't mean it in a condescending way, but in a historical way). These people were never TAUGHT the value of beauty, and they still aren't. It is a terrible, terrible oversight. I went through a public education system in New York City (not in Ohio, mind you), and it was absolutely terrible, valueless, careless, qualityless education. Also, reference the kinds of stores that are in American malls - they are not H&M or Mango or Zara (affordable, yet somewhat stylish) - but Gap and Abercrombie. Even the aforementioned stores sell crap in the US, yet good stuff in Europe. When we were in Seville we dressed my wife head to toe and more in Mango (they were having a sale) in stylish clothes - for under 100 Euros. My point is that in Europe style is accessible. In the US - it's either Gap or Barneys for the people who live outside of NYC. In Europe people will simply refuse to dress the way Americans do because beauty is instilled in them as a value. It is not so in America. At least these have been my observations...
[snapback]310182[/snapback]
[/quote]


Faust - sorry I have taken a while to respond to you. I think it would be good to have this as a separate topic as its really interesting (but maybe boring for people who want to read about AV Hache).

I guess my starting point is less informed than you in that I have never visited the US in order to make a direct comparison. However, I think what you say isn't just limited to the US. As you know i live in the UK and, as you may also know, the UK is more and more influenced by America all the time. Culture in the UK is not highly prized either - we don't read many books, we work long hours, we watch inordinate amounts of TV and our biggest leisure activity is binge drinking. Of course there are the exceptions, & there is a great deal happening in London culturally. I too received state funded education & wasn't really educated in matters cultural, but my parents brought me up to appreciate art, music & beautiful things. I suspect that things are different in some parts of Europe like France, Spain & Italy (interestingly all catholic countries). I don't think its a coincidence that in countries which underwent the reformation, there is less importance paid to things 'aesthetic' (after all that was one of the main objections to the catholic church - its idolising of trophies & 'things'). Although the scandinavian countries have a healthy design scene, it is very much based on utility & function rather than pure decoration.

As regards how we dress more specifically, British people dress very badly on the whole I think. There are two issues, one of supply & one of demand - i think demand is the key. There is a general attitude of laziness & slobbishness that prevails. Comfort is always a preferable goal for most people. I suppose its just about relaxation of rules & perhaps a general trend towards informality which started in the last century. Did sportswear not really start properly with Chanel in the 20's - as a reaction to the fussy corsetry favoured by the victorians? I suppose the trend has just run & run. Its not just in clothes though, lots of 'rules' previously adhered to have been broken down (some good ones & some bad ones). Thus if the demand for boring Gap clothes is there then Gap will supply. It must be the same in the US.


anyway, i am rambling on a bit here without much coherence. sorry!! Its interesting - I don't know the answers but I like thinking about it very much. :

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14-07-2004
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i don't know where lena is or when she'll be back...but i do think this is a very interesteing topic of discussion which deserves its own thread...

i loved reading both helena and faust's posts on the subject ...what would we call the topic?...

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14-07-2004
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i had few problems logging in lately, hence me being away etc, but yes, sure if you find a title for this new topic, let me know and we will have a seperate topic asap : )

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16-07-2004
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I suppose we could call it 'Fashion and Culture' - or is that too grand? mmm - perhaps. I suppose we started talking about what people wear in Europe as opposed to the US. What about just 'Style in Europe' - I dunno - maybe Faust should decide - he is good with words is he not?

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16-07-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by helena@Jul 16 2004, 07:54 AM
I suppose we could call it 'Fashion and Culture' - or is that too grand? mmm - perhaps. I suppose we started talking about what people wear in Europe as opposed to the US. What about just 'Style in Europe' - I dunno - maybe Faust should decide - he is good with words is he not?
[snapback]311724[/snapback]

Thank you, Helena, I'm flattered . It is an interesting topic. How about we call it, "Culture, Esthetics, and Fashion"? Almost what you called it

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16-07-2004
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Ok lets go with that then - I see you spell aesthetics differently in the US!

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16-07-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by helena@Jul 16 2004, 11:45 AM
Ok lets go with that then - I see you spell aesthetics differently in the US!
[snapback]311775[/snapback]
it's a variant, both are accepted and mean the same thing

P.S. I'm having real trouble viewing the site, so excuse my sporadic posting. Let's bear with Bear, until he makes it better

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16-07-2004
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I am having similar problems.

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21-01-2005
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yes faust was supposed to start it wasn't he. He was supposed to have injected sufficient intellectual gravitas to get it off to a good start as I recall.

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