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26-12-2010
  61
Power to the 99%
 
fashionista-ta's Avatar
 
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^ I'm not a big fan of rules either, but it's not unusual for a fashion image to feel like a slap in the face to me--that's what I object to. To me it's rather obvious that portraying women as dead or disfigured would be offensive. What's even more shocking to me is that more in the fashion community don't see it that way.

What I also don't get is how these images I find disgusting can be found in mainstream fashion publications, which at the same time manage to be incredibly white bread and repetitive. I mean how many times can Steven Meisel photograph models leaping (or appearing to leap) in the air, as they each wear a complete outfit from a single designer? Yes that was innovative when it was done for the first time decades ago, but it's far past its sell-by date now.

When I see these offensive images I wonder, exactly how difficult would it be to come up with an imaginative ed that's respectful to women?!?!?! I have to believe a lot of these photographers are in desperate need of therapy.

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Last edited by fashionista-ta; 26-12-2010 at 07:11 PM.
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28-12-2010
  62
clever ain't wise
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fashionista-ta View Post
^ I'm not a big fan of rules either, but it's not unusual for a fashion image to feel like a slap in the face to me--that's what I object to. To me it's rather obvious that portraying women as dead or disfigured would be offensive. What's even more shocking to me is that more in the fashion community don't see it that way.

What I also don't get is how these images I find disgusting can be found in mainstream fashion publications, which at the same time manage to be incredibly white bread and repetitive. I mean how many times can Steven Meisel photograph models leaping (or appearing to leap) in the air, as they each wear a complete outfit from a single designer? Yes that was innovative when it was done for the first time decades ago, but it's far past its sell-by date now.

When I see these offensive images I wonder, exactly how difficult would it be to come up with an imaginative ed that's respectful to women?!?!?! I have to believe a lot of these photographers are in desperate need of therapy.
I have never been offended by a fashion image. I have been disgusted by what some are doing with their talent, especially on glossy pages ready for the most beautiful prints, and I have been nauseated at the simpleton perfectionism pervading fashion imagery of the last ten years.

But I have never been offended as a woman by fashion imagery. And I actually have been by men's magazines. So to me, fashion magazines, for the most part, manage not to be offensive to women. Why? Because they don't portray women as idiotic f***bags.

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29-05-2012
  63
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Im sorry to resurrect a topic from a year and a half ago, but i think it is a very good and important one therefore one worth resurrecting. I would be interested to hear your opinion oh high heels for example. When i see somebody in high heels i rarely see a a sexy woman, what i see is mostly the effort to be liked and the unability to walk which makes them funny for me, but also scary because so many women gladly dress in a way that unables them to walk propperly and actually do stuff.(I remember girls from my hometown who would bring flats with them in handbags on a saturday night in case they needed to walk home for a couple of blocks).
Simone de Beauvoir wrote that womens bodies are inhibited and restraint with unappriate clothes and the rituals of good manners. It must have been more so in the 50s, but is it over now? I really don think so. I would be interested in hearing your opinion.

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29-05-2012
  64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgghh View Post
Im sorry to resurrect a topic from a year and a half ago, but i think it is a very good and important one therefore one worth resurrecting. I would be interested to hear your opinion oh high heels for example. When i see somebody in high heels i rarely see a a sexy woman, what i see is mostly the effort to be liked and the unability to walk which makes them funny for me, but also scary because so many women gladly dress in a way that unables them to walk propperly and actually do stuff.(I remember girls from my hometown who would bring flats with them in handbags on a saturday night in case they needed to walk home for a couple of blocks).
Simone de Beauvoir wrote that womens bodies are inhibited and restraint with unappriate clothes and the rituals of good manners. It must have been more so in the 50s, but is it over now? I really don think so. I would be interested in hearing your opinion.
I'm not sure why you thought it as a good idea to post a comment judging women's choices in a thread about FEMINISM lol. What I think is sad is that women are expected to look a certain way, but when they do, they're looked down upon or branded as "try hard" "fake" or "high maintenance, as you just did. It's sad how we're judged either way.

Also.... spell check.

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29-05-2012
  65
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^ Somebody already mentioned in this thread, what lies beneath choices is important too and should be debated about as well. Is conformity a good choice?

Respecting choices just because theyre choices made by a female person without questioning them and where they come from or how they affect the rest of the society is an attiude that i do not agree with. Women are expected to act and dress in alot of ways by a mysoginistic society and i can not automaticaly respect all of the choices made by people male or female.(which doesnt meen im not thinking about them, trying to understand them or that im not open to new attitudes if i hear an argument that woul persuade me to think otherwise) But lets not get too far with this. I was hoping for a discussion and hearing argumented opinions different to mine.

Btw. english is not my mother tonque so please try to tolerate spelling mistakes i might make or am making


Last edited by ssgghh; 29-05-2012 at 04:40 AM.
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29-05-2012
  66
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ssgghh - I too have to wonder sometimes when I see girls in very high heels and very short skirts who can barely walk; meanwhile they are walking alongside boys in baggy jeans and trainers. It's obvious who's the more physically comfortable in the group.

And you're correct to point out that people don't make choices in a vacuum; people make choices based on what they are exposed to a lot of the time.

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Fashion: Don’t you recognize me? Death: You should know that I don’t see very well and I can’t wear glasses. Fashion: I’m Fashion, your sister. Death: My sister? Fashion: Yes. You and I together keep undoing and changing things down here on earth although you go about it in one way and I another. Giacomo Leopardi, “Dialogue Between Fashion and Death.”abridged
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29-05-2012
  67
Power to the 99%
 
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^ Also there are people who welcome 'rules' that explain how to gain the approval of a powerful group of people (e.g., men).

I work with someone who is never (OK, once that I saw) out of 5-6" heels, tight and generally low-cut clothing. She wears bandage skirts to work. She has had plastic surgery (huge implants) and is a competitive bodybuilder (bikini class). I guess when you're used to wearing a bikini onstage, anything else seems like lots of clothes. It's interesting.

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29-05-2012
  68
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So glad someone resurrected this thread again! I look back a year and a half ago and I think that my views on fashion and feminism have continued to evolve. Right now I'm all about choice. And I think if a women chooses to wear tight clothing that's fine. Or if she chooses to dress baggy fashions that's fine too. But what's really key is if she's aware of why she's dressing a certain way. Is she doing it for herself? Is she dressing for a guy or for other people? Is she dressing to fit into what society deems the "norm?" These are all questions that I think are important to ask. If she's aware of why she dresses a certain way, then I think it's marriage of fashion and feminism. But I also realize that too often people are blind to why they are doing something or they don't believe that they are swayed by outside factors. But Ssgghh, I do see your point as well, it's important to also question (or perhaps it's better to phrase it as, think about) how a person's environment, cultural upbringing, and personal values reflects their fashion choices.

And as for your question about high heels, personally I won't wear them because they are so bloody uncomfortable. However, I have no problem with other women wearing heels if they feel comfortable or beautiful in them. Although at the same time I do admit it can be hard for me to watch girls teetering around in heels because I'm thinking to myself, "wouldn't it be better to change into something which doesn't restrict your movements so much?" I think restriction of movement or rather the restriction of self (physical or mental) is a difficult thing to experience or to see others experience because it just parlays back to misogynistic ideas like, women should just sit pretty and let the men do the talking. And for me at least, I find it hard to watch other funny, smart, charming, brave, and beautiful girls continue to take part in the system of misogyny and the worst part is that they don't even realize that they are just perpetuating it. So it's this obliviousness to the system that gets to me. I hope this explains a little bit more about my feelings on the subject, but it's late where I am, so I'm sorry if it's confusing at all.

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30-05-2012
  69
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I feel feminism & fashion can co-exist. feminism is all about having choice to do what you want with out constraints based on gender? so if you choose to dress in stereotypical girly fashion ie. skin tight & super high heals. Its all right as long as its for you & no one else. Your dressing that way because that's how you feel comfortable not because your trying to attract men or feel you have to dress that way to be a "woman". If any of that makes any sense?

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30-05-2012
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^ make sense. This is the most important aspect imo:
Quote:
"as long as its for you & no one else. Your dressing that way because that's how you feel comfortable"
Further, some women can really stomp around in high heels for example; maybe they can even run in them. It's the ones I see who are teetering and who look uncomfortable - even vulnerable - that I wonder about.

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Fashion: Don’t you recognize me? Death: You should know that I don’t see very well and I can’t wear glasses. Fashion: I’m Fashion, your sister. Death: My sister? Fashion: Yes. You and I together keep undoing and changing things down here on earth although you go about it in one way and I another. Giacomo Leopardi, “Dialogue Between Fashion and Death.”abridged

Last edited by Not Plain Jane; 30-05-2012 at 04:38 PM.
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30-05-2012
  71
don't look down
 
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Whenever I see someone tottering about in improbably high heels, I just think they're going through that phase where the allure of shoes is such an exciting concept that it can overrule reality, but for a lot of people, their ability to endure footwear that can make such painful demands - both on their feet and their finances - is rather shortlived.

And when real life comes calling, and they start wearing trainers every morning, they get to be wistful about the time they ran about town in shoes they'd never consider wearing now.

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30-05-2012
  72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerrouge View Post
Whenever I see someone tottering about in improbably high heels, I just think they're going through that phase where the allure of shoes is such an exciting concept that it can overrule reality
I really like how this is phrased - and i think the key point here is overruling reality. The thing is, i dont think its something that should be overruled. Others may disagree.


Last edited by ssgghh; 30-05-2012 at 06:19 PM.
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31-05-2012
  73
don't look down
 
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You could argue that women's magazines are entirely devoted to the art of overruling reality, with airbrushed celebrities on the front, cosmetics ads selling skincreams that won't work, fashion pages pushing items that cost three months' wages but will be 'out' by next season... if you buy into that world, having shoes you can't walk in makes as much sense as the rest of it.
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31-05-2012
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We all need fantasies to be sure, but fantasies need to be considered with caution - and knowledge. As tigerrouge points out - by all means, look at magazines and enjoy them, but be realistic about them - those are not how people really look.

For example, fantasy won't overrule reality if, say, one of those teetering girls I saw on the street needed to run from someone. I saw one girl who was heavily under the influence of alcohol, and the lad with her was kindly helping her. But she was falling down on the street, her skirt was rising up, her underwear was exposed; it was totally embarrassing and sad. And what if the lad with her wasn't being so nice? She'd have little-to-no way to defend herself, even if she hadn't been drinking.

Women, and people generally, need to be smart about their fantasies. Overruling reality isn't always safe or wise.

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Fashion: Don’t you recognize me? Death: You should know that I don’t see very well and I can’t wear glasses. Fashion: I’m Fashion, your sister. Death: My sister? Fashion: Yes. You and I together keep undoing and changing things down here on earth although you go about it in one way and I another. Giacomo Leopardi, “Dialogue Between Fashion and Death.”abridged
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31-05-2012
  75
windowshopping
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoninahAliza View Post
Right now I'm all about choice. And I think if a women chooses to wear tight clothing that's fine. Or if she chooses to dress baggy fashions that's fine too. But what's really key is if she's aware of why she's dressing a certain way. Is she doing it for herself? Is she dressing for a guy or for other people? Is she dressing to fit into what society deems the "norm?"
First off, I think this is a lovely post. I read this thread while bored at work, and it's been great.

However, I think we need to be careful when talking about the notion of dressing for oneself. At face value it seems like a feminist notion- you step outside of systems of gender and power and do your own thing. Unfortunately, I think it's a fantasy. Whenever you put on clothes of any kind you're participating in systems of dress which are, in various ways, tied to historical power structures. Or, the idea of dressing for oneself presupposes the existence of clothes which are, in a way, ahistorical. Wearing clothes is necessarily a public and social act. As much as I would like to think otherwise, "dressing for yourself" is only one way of reacting to and synthesizing elements of a system which constrains and defines our clothing choices. The idea of dressing for yourself is a reaction or opposition to dressing for other people, and is defined by that contrast.

So, dressing for yourself is only one way of engaging with a social system of dress. A feminist mode of dressing, in my mind, would acknowledge and engage that system directly. If dressing for yourself ignores in inherently social nature of clothing, then maybe one ought to give it a rest (though telling people what they ought to do is a sticky issue). So when people are talking about feminist designers, the one who springs to my mind is Rei Kawakubo. I know she claims to have no interest in feminism, but her symbolic (and actual) deconstruction of gender performance / codes is really quite powerful. It actually engages the issue. I'm not saying we should all go out and buy Comme or anything. In fact, I think feminsts have bigger fish to fry than fahsion. Be aware, be agentic, and screw everyone else.

also: First post, hi everybody.

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