How to Join
the Fashion Spot / Front Row / Fashion... In Depth
FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Rules Links Mobile How to Join
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
17-10-2006
  226
etre soi-meme
 
Lena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: europe
Gender: femme
Posts: 23,965
off topic, but "the baseball diaries" by JC is a great book, a classic

men and women stand equal when their sexual identity has been abused
the only difference is that women are more 'consious' of their abuse by advertising, the arts, and the media

on the whole we live in a sexualy abusing society and this reflets it's ugly head in fashion culture

  Reply With Quote
 
17-10-2006
  227
fashion insider
 
Couture_Tribe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto
Gender: femme
Posts: 2,019
You know, because women are being protrayed as a sex symbol so much, men start to think us as an object rather than a person with feelings.

__________________
"It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers".
James Thurber
"The greater the obstacle, the more glory in overcoming it."
unknown
  Reply With Quote
17-10-2006
  228
botanizing on the asphalt
 
laika's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: nyc
Gender: femme
Posts: 1,566
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmocat
I don't agree that you can compare issues and say one is more 'pressing' than the other, apart from your won perspective. I think many women (and men) are still very, very concerned with this issue, whilst most likey being engaged with other issues as well. It would be hard not to...
Sorry, but that's not what I was implying. I don't these as two separate issues--they are two separate examples of the same issue, and one is clearly more extreme than the other. The point is, the use of sexual imagery for power and exploitation has reached increasingly horrifying proportions in the 21st century. It's a problem for everyone, not just women; and I think we ought to address it as such.

__________________
....I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable."
  Reply With Quote
17-10-2006
  229
backstage pass
 
birdofparadise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Gender: homme
Posts: 845
I just wonder if advertisment takes the fall for real physical violence against women. Does attacking fashion's varying levels of tastes really do anything for women and/or the movement? I understand and respect everyone's opinions on it, oddly enough, but I think sometimes a gucci ad is just as gucci ad. And while I'm certainly not applauding when fashion takes a nosedive in that kind of a direction, I'm for freedom of expression and creative license and believe that the points of view these advertisers, photographers, models and designers are expressing are just as valid and substantial as anyone else's. At the same time, I can't equate a fashion ad with, say, the killings of those amish school girls a few weeks ago. That's what chills me to the bone, not a pubic 'G'.

__________________
"Menswear is so limited so I'm free with my ideas. Otherwise I'd die of boredom."--Miuccia Prada
  Reply With Quote
17-10-2006
  230
etre soi-meme
 
Lena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: europe
Gender: femme
Posts: 23,965
the amish bloodbath and the gucci ads may not be connected but in my book are equaly lethal

female and male taste is been shaped by those 'innocent' fashion ads which nobody seems to pay special attention
it all works in the subconsious and its more political than we may imagine

  Reply With Quote
17-10-2006
  231
backstage pass
 
birdofparadise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Gender: homme
Posts: 845
So then what's the solution? Are we to censor everything? Do there just need to be more...women in fashion photography, running ad agencies? Should the role of women in society never be questioned, taboo? Or does it just need to become more absurd? Don't those ads and propositions tell more about men and the frustration of their desires than women anyway? (This is incredibly interesting, I've never honestly thought about any of this before...)

__________________
"Menswear is so limited so I'm free with my ideas. Otherwise I'd die of boredom."--Miuccia Prada

Last edited by birdofparadise; 17-10-2006 at 03:08 PM.
  Reply With Quote
17-10-2006
  232
Of a bastard line.
 
Multitudes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: London(& Copenhagen)
Gender: homme
Posts: 9,329
Hmmm! what is normal or the norm when is comes to the body? ... as my first ballet teacher said to us, what you're about to do to your bodies are not 'natural', you're about to train and do things to your bodies which is fare from 'natural' ... and I think, as for dance, the same goes for modelling, but either way it's normal or not, for me it's not about contrasting body types or defining what should be the norm, because I think there is something beautiful, expressive and interesting in all body types.

Hussein C's naked female body has as much expressive and creative energies and 'value' as the next ... and to claim that he's, through the use of this type of body, is telling us this is the norm or we should all strive for this type of body, as suggest in his s/s 07 collection thread, is to easy. Especially a designer like Hussein C is clever enough to avoid any statements suggesting that what he shows us is the norm, because wouldn't this exactly take it's creative energies and potentials away, and become an imitation, instead what I believe, any artistic expression should strive for, reinvention ... reinventing reality!

I also think Iluvsja makes a really important point, that the real concern is not the imagery perse, but what is more concerning is how the consumer interprets it, reacts to it or by in to this fantasy, with no sense of critical thought, and I think the problem lies elsewhere than just what the media is bombarding us with, which is not to say that oversexualized body or the overexposure of sexual imagery is helping, but I just think that there more constructed ways of attacking these issues...

One thing is the subject obsession, another thing is the how the media is persued as a reality. I think Baudrillard puts quite radical, when he came out after the first Golf war saying "The Golfwar never took place". What he is saying is really not that the golfwar never took place, but the experience most people had was through media created gulfwar. What we witness on tv was more like a computer game, than a reality. It's in this context where the media is interpret as a reality, which is quite concerning or atleast it's concerning that people don't ask critcal questions about what they see ...

Reposting some of the thoughts, with slight moderations, I suggested In the Weight thread, because unfortunately the discussion turned into a discussion about which model looked anorexic or not, and I also think it deals within the same context:

One thing is the body trends in the fashion industy, but I think we have to look at this in a much broader context, as you also suggest Mutterlein, because I think to change these trends, we have to look at our society/culture, because the fashion industry doesn't just operate by it self, but is connected to much broader trends of embodiment in general. If we look to the media of everyday life(newspapers, advertisements, television programs, mall handouts, magazines etc.) it signals ways in which the 'natural' body has been dramatically refashioned through the application of new technologies of corporeality. This relies on a reconceptualization of the human body as a boundary figure belonging simultaneously to at least two previosly incompatible systems of meaning - 'The orgainic/natural' and 'the technologiacal/cultural'. At the point at which the body is reconceptualized not as a fixed part of nature, but as a boundary concept, we witness an ideological tug-of-war between competing systems of meaning which include and in part define the material struggles of physical bodies ...

This construction of a boundary between nature and culture serves seceral ideological purposes; most notably, it guarantees aproper order of things and establishes a hierarchical relationship between culture and nature. At a basic level, this socially constructed hierarchy functions to reassure a technologically overstimulated imagination that culture/man will prevail in his encounter with nature. The role of the body in this boundary setting process is significant because it becomes the place where anxieties about the 'proper order of things' erupt and are eventually ideologically managed. techno-bodies are healthy, enhanced and fully functional - more real than real. New biotechnologies are promoted and rationalized as life-enhancing and even life-saving. Often obscured are the discipling and surveillan consequances of new body technologies ...

In our hyper-mediated techno-culture, body awareness is amplified such that we can technologically witness, if not yet manage, the molecular functioning of bodily processes. Medically authorities encourage us to monitor consumption of sugar, caffeine, salt, fat, cholesterol, nicotine, alchohol, steroids, sunlight, narcotics etc, through the use of such devices as electronic scales, home pregnancy kits, diabetes tests, blood pressure machines, fat calipers etc. These devices function as a set of visualization techniques that contribute to the fragmentation of the body into organs fluids and 'bodily states', which in turn promote a self-conscious self-surveillance whereby the body becomes an object of intense vigilance and control ...

What scares me is the much broader context of this know-your-body obsession and how it manifest it self our contemporary culture, which also includes the fashion industry ...

I don't think dismantling predefined norms of the body image is a way to change or defining what should be portrait in the media, but instead, I think, the most important thing is to learn people how to be critical in there respons to this constant bombardment of imagery and text we are faced with in everyday life, because isn't quite scary how easily people buy into these "fantasies", how we react to this bombardment with no sense of filtering? ...

__________________
We say too much in front of paintings ...
www.becomingmads.com
  Reply With Quote
17-10-2006
  233
flaunt the imperfection
 
softgrey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: downtown...
Gender: femme
Posts: 50,674
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdofparadise
So then what's the solution? Are we to censor everything? Do there just need to be more...women in fashion photography, running ad agencies? Should the role of women in society never be questioned, taboo? Or does it just need to become more absurd? Don't those ads and propositions tell more about men and the frustration of their desires than women anyway? (This is incredibly interesting, I've never honestly thought about any of this before...)
well- truth be told...
part of my motivation for entering into the fashion industry as an editor/stylist was to promote images of STRONG women...
and i do try to do this in the stories and ad campaigns i have worked on..
that is the 'thread' that holds all my work together...

advertising is pretty powerful..and if you CAN influence it, you can reach a pretty HUGE audience...and in that way make a real impact...

however - art directors/creative directors probably have the most power, so i would advise that anyone who would seek to change things try that route...

__________________
"It is not money that makes you well dressed: it is understanding."
ChristianDior



  Reply With Quote
17-10-2006
  234
V.I.P.
 
JuiceMajor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sushi Bar
Gender: homme
Posts: 4,506
I sometimes find using minor celebrities also a good way to promote a STRONG WOMEN as I think the majority would relate to it better.


__________________
Low Price For Bad Things Is Not Cheapness
http://teknd.blogspot.co.uk/
  Reply With Quote
17-10-2006
  235
flaunt the imperfection
 
softgrey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: downtown...
Gender: femme
Posts: 50,674
i don't really understand that logic juice...
why would the average woman relate any better to some minor celeb than a model?...

do you think that models are too 'perfect' for women to relate to?...
is that what you are saying?.....

__________________
"It is not money that makes you well dressed: it is understanding."
ChristianDior



  Reply With Quote
17-10-2006
  236
V.I.P.
 
JJohnson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Gender: homme
Posts: 3,587
Quote:
Originally Posted by softgrey
i don't really understand that logic juice...
why would the average woman relate any better to some minor celeb than a model?...

do you think that models are too 'perfect' for women to relate to?...
is that what you are saying?.....
I say yes and no. Models are humans too, and there are many girls out there that have the model body, but arent models, so it's relative. There are also people out there who are fully grown women with curves, so I guess high fashion runway models do not represent who they are, but bigger women do- e.g. Oprah, Queen Latifah, and Sophie Dahl.

  Reply With Quote
17-10-2006
  237
V.I.P.
 
JuiceMajor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sushi Bar
Gender: homme
Posts: 4,506
People would likely to know who Trinny and Susannah is than say Daria Werbowy not because Daria is perfect. Although some may argue that she is not.

I am just shocked that people like Jade Goody is actually more influential than the likes of Gwyneth Paltrow and Paul McCartney in the recent Sunday Style’s ‘The Power 50’ list.


At least in UK, most do look up to the wrong person as their role model.


__________________
Low Price For Bad Things Is Not Cheapness
http://teknd.blogspot.co.uk/
  Reply With Quote
17-10-2006
  238
V.I.P.
 
Colette_B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: California
Gender: femme
Posts: 5,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Multitudes
because isn't quite scary how easily people buy into these "fantasies", how we react to this bombardment with no sense of filtering? ...
i def. agree w/ you on this point.
it's the same thing w/ politics. information is given out, and it's really up to the individual and how they respond to it and analyze it. it just sucks that the majority of people seem to not use thier brains, and therefore fall for what is dished out at them by the media. everyone has thier own likes/dislikes on the matter. it's not correct to stop such expression, b/c that would be a form of censorship, but i think it's better to be aware of it, and have discussions [like the one we're having now .. ] in order to have better understandings of other viewpoints..
as long as there is a dialogue, then society isn't totally lost.

__________________
Symptomatic of what we've become, I used to think you were the only one.

Last edited by Colette_B; 17-10-2006 at 06:19 PM.
  Reply With Quote
18-10-2006
  239
etre soi-meme
 
Lena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: europe
Gender: femme
Posts: 23,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdofparadise
So then what's the solution? Are we to censor everything? Do there just need to be more...women in fashion photography, running ad agencies? Should the role of women in society never be questioned, taboo? Or does it just need to become more absurd? Don't those ads and propositions tell more about men and the frustration of their desires than women anyway? (This is incredibly interesting, I've never honestly thought about any of this before...)
i cant see an easy solution and i'm so anti-censoring so that wouldnt help things at all
its not really the role of 'woman/man' that needs questioning, its the way we understand 'sexy' that should develop in a different way
as i have posted before here, i believe males being as much abused as females on grounds of advertising.

its up to the young generation to boycot this kind of oversexed esthetics (which as far as i know they already do) and turn their attention to more creative ways of communicating products through campaigns

sex-sells is an over-used media/advertising mantra which already is not working as well as it did 5 or 10 years ago.
sex-sells is still there because creatives think 'sex is the easy way'
i guess thse people need to work a bit more on their projects :p

  Reply With Quote
18-10-2006
  240
PopWillEatItself
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Gender: femme
Posts: 1,450
To me it sounds awfully similar to the debate that the Columbine murders provoked. Was Marilyn Manson responsible for the death of the school-children?

Kimkhuu, what do you suggest should be done to minimize the effect of these ads?

  Reply With Quote
Reply
Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Tags
fashion or sex or politics
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

monitoring_string = "058526dd2635cb6818386bfd373b82a4"


 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:25 AM.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
TheFashionSpot.com is a property of TotallyHer Media, LLC, an Evolve Media LLC company. ©2014 All rights reserved.