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22-06-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by stylegurrl+Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:54 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stylegurrl @ Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:54 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-softgrey@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:43 pm
so is there a general assumption that ALL women LIVE to ATTRACT MEN?....that this is their only consideration and reason for making the choices that they do?...

because that is INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!............

I know exactly when men begin to be interested in /attracted to me...and it's the second i open my mouth...it's what i say...and they don't just want to F*CK me...they want to spend time with me... because i hold their interest for more than the five minutes it takes to ejaculate...

those bottle blondes with the boobs that acid refers to will get F*CKed .... but then what???>....
ps...most women really aren't looking to just get f*cked... regardless of how many sex and the city episodes you all may have watched...they are usually looking for a full relationship which includes sex among many other things...

OR NOT>>>some women ACTUALLY LIKE being single and some women are already in relationships...


*grumble grumble grumble..



I agree with you 100% SG [/b][/quote]


let's hear it for independant women!!!

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22-06-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by softgrey+Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:59 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (softgrey @ Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:59 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Quote:
Originally posted by stylegurrl@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:54 pm
<!--QuoteBegin-softgrey
Quote:
@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:43 pm
so is there a general assumption that ALL women LIVE to ATTRACT MEN?....that this is their only consideration and reason for making the choices that they do?...

because that is INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!............

I know exactly when men begin to be interested in /attracted to me...and it's the second i open my mouth...it's what i say...and they don't just want to F*CK me...they want to spend time with me... because i hold their interest for more than the five minutes it takes to ejaculate...

those bottle blondes with the boobs that acid refers to will get F*CKed .... but then what???>....
ps...most women really aren't looking to just get f*cked... regardless of how many sex and the city episodes you all may have watched...they are usually looking for a full relationship which includes sex among many other things...

OR NOT>>>some women ACTUALLY LIKE being single and some women are already in relationships...


*grumble grumble grumble..

* *



I agree with you 100% SG


let's hear it for independant women!!! [/b][/quote]
(Destiny's Child song plays in the background)

'All the honeys makin' money, throw your hands up at me'


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22-06-2004
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I have a little bit of defense for John Galliano.

I don't think he was saying he views women purely as objects of sexual desire. He said he designs clothes for women that make men want to f**ck them -- meaning men are NOT in power. The clothes and the women are in power. This brings up two entirely separate points. Helena, you hit on one of them, which is that many women want to put themselves into such a position of power over men by dressing in sexy clothes. I think JG had in mind more than this though, so on to the second point. As a designer, he views clothes as art. What is the appeal of art? Painters paint pictures of nude women -- are those meant to provoke sexual thought? Do the painters view women purely as objects of sexual desire? Are the paintings of nude women only for men, or are women able to see the art in them as well?

Also -- I started thinking about Galliano's designs. Some of them are absolutely not provocative. Would it be okay if you knew he was saying his quote about these "un-sexy" designs? Is it only because you imagine that he is talking about clothes which don't cover enough skin that you find his quite offensive?

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22-06-2004
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Actually I think the ones who are more overtly sexual in the way they dress play harder to get even though people tend to assume otherwise. Some women just like being chased around the bar just so that they can slam the door in the guy's face at the end of the night. I've met some girls who dressed like sluts but were really prudish when it comes to sex.

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23-06-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by softgrey+Jun 22nd, 2004 - 2:50 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (softgrey @ Jun 22nd, 2004 - 2:50 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Quote:
Originally posted by mikeijames@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 2:48 pm
<!--QuoteBegin-softgrey
Quote:
@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 2:42 pm
i am far more interested in being respected and treated as an equal...rather than an object ...
before i am a woman...i am a PERSON!!!

...why does a woman have to strip herself of her sexuality in order to be respected? men most certainly do not.
who said they did?...you're putting words in my mouth... [/b][/quote]
you make it sound that if a woman dresses a certain way that men must objectify her. and cannot respect her as an equal?

i think that a woman can assert her sexuality and still expect some egalitarianism. i'm bothered that it's perceived and accepted that a woman must disguise her charms before she can obtain respect from men.


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23-06-2004
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kirsten(aka pursenvy) said it very well...and i will quote her here...

"I'm afraid that I give the perspective of a much more mature ( read late 30s) woman!
I am pleased to see the taming of this full-on sexy look. For teenagers, the trend was particularly worrisome. Parading around a mall only half dress really sends out some signals..and it is possible that this is not exactly what the young woman is really trying to project ....
She is thinking - I look fashionable, I look trendy, I am popular.
What others see is - I'm up for sex anytime, I don't respect myself, and you needn't either.
And you can bet the boys think she is up for it!!
I would like for young women to consider what their clothes 'say' and whether that is really the message they wish to project.
More demure clothing can actually be MORE attractive, because it says 'I respect myself, and you should respect me".
Just a thought.
Kirsten "


Your clothes absolutely convey something of who you are...and as they say...you never get a second chance to make a first impression...assumptions WILL be made based on your appearance and the way you present yourself...so everyone needs to consider that when they choose what they wear...ask yourself...who am i? and who do i want the world to see?...what do I want people to know about me?...what do i have to say?...

a visual is very powerful...'a picture's worth a thousand words'...you can say a lot with your physical appearance...i hope people can think iof more to say than "i'm hot"...

personally , i find a bit of modesty and a little self depracating humour extremely attractive...people who go around shaking their 'assets' in your face are really quite boring and can be rather annoying...

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23-06-2004
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Just wanted to clarify what I meant in my original post. My starting point was that a particularly influential designer has stated his motivation when designing clothes for women - that being, that he wanted women to wear clothes that make men want to have sex with them. To me, he seems not to be designing clothes to cater for what women want but looking to what men want from women as his primary concern. Thats why I asked 'why do you wear the clothes you wear?' - in other words - what motivates you when you wear certain clothes? I suppose to a large extent this was a question for other women to answer.

when i wear clothes - I don't wear them to attract men or to be desired in any kind of sexual way. Quite the contrary in most cicumstances (I never wear low cut tops, short skirts or sleeveless tops to work for example). I wear nice clothes to feel good about myself firstly but I must admit that I also wear clothes to be admired by other people (not desired) - men or women. I also wear clothes to express my personality & show that i have a brain. For example I think putting an outfit together is a mental 'process' that, to certain people whose opinions I value, is instantly recognisable & I suppose recognition from those people is a 'reward' for my efforts. That is a motivation for me (albeit that motivation is sometimes sub-concious).

The sexuality/advertising etc, is a sub-text. I agree with Faust, not when he says that all women want is to be desired, but when he says that I am in the minority holding the views I hold. Lots & lots of women do just want to be 'sexy' (used in the slutty sense) because women on the whole crave to desired by the opposite sex. (As a side point I completely agree with Softgrey when she says that women don't want a one night stand, despite sex & the citys protestations to the contrary). The advertisers understand our base animal desires - for men to have sex & for women to want to attract men (to be their partner). I think that is the simple explanation for 'sex sells'. However we don't live in a simple world of blacks & whites - we live in a civilisation. Some men & some women analyse these things & try to consider what is right & what is wrong. Thats what I try to do. Thats what I think we should do more of.

Back to the start point thought - it is outrageous that Galliano designs womens clothes to cater for mens desires. If women want to be taken seriously then we will have to realise that dressing up like a whore will get us nowhere.

Mikeijames - its completely niave to think that men (particularly those with any power) see women they find sexy as their equals - well you certainly don't live in my world where they absolutely do not.

Enjoying the debate!

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23-06-2004
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thanks for clarifying helena...i think i understood your original post and i have to say that my motivation for wearing what i choose to wear is very close to yours...almost exactly the same...

so consider me as part of the one percentile i guess.. ...do you really think it's that small?...no wonder i always feel like an outsider...

you know...i can be wearing the sloppiest messiest clothes with messy hair and no make up , but i'll still get comments from men as i walk by...some may think this is a compliment, but i feel threatened by this...the number of women who are raped is astonishing...i have been fortunate enough to have escaped this horror so far...but i still have half my life ahead of me...anything could happen...so the last thing i want to do is attract more attention to myself...because then i feel more like a target or potential victim than some sort of powerful diva...if i can't run or kick in my clothes i feel way too vulnerable...that's why i don't wear manolos...they are too spindly and you can only teeter in them...an easy target...

i've worked with many actesses who have to be in the spotlight...and i can tell you that it is vital for a woman to have strong footing and be able to stride with confidence...it's hard to feel beautiful and confident when you are worrying if you are going to fall and knock out a couple of teeth or crack your skull open...or worse...emabarrass yourself on national television..

I really can say from experience that the brightest and most interesting women i have ever met have dressed beautifully , but very individually and maybe flirtatiously, but not in an overtly sexual manner...and in the circles i travel in...overt sexuality would be frowned upon...sexy is ok, but not slutty...there IS a difference..

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23-06-2004
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That brings up another question to me.... i believe that there are more than 1% of women that would agree with you... but I believe most (women) that don't agree would never admit it. That they dress sexy to just attract men or for just attention and I DO believe there is a large percent who are like this.

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23-06-2004
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oops I guess it really wasnt a question.. .maybe in my head it was. hmmm

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23-06-2004
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i love how women are willing to apologize for the men who abuse, brutalize, and oppress them...don't you think that addressing these larger social attitudes both in an individual and largescale way is the best way to correct this and not re-arranging how you dress to suit some man?

teenagers are different bc for the most part teenagers have parents who do or do not take responsibility for how their children dress...and at the end of the day, teenagers are teenagers...i expect them to dress inappropriately.

i'm talking about women. strong, independent women should not and do not have to look unattractive and desexualized in order to gain respect. you go to any office place in a cosmopolitan setting and you'll see women dressing provactively and stylishly (without necessarily being inappropriate). of course, middle america may be behind the curve but that's where i take issue. many women haven't learned that it's okay to dress like a woman at work. to not wear clunk heels and a square skirt. so now to report that these looks somehow represent the cutting edge is strange to me.

is it that we're confusing dressing sexy with dressing inappropriately?

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23-06-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by softgrey@Jun 23rd, 2004 - 12:51 pm
thanks for clarifying helena...i think i understood your original post and i have to say that my motivation for wearing what i choose to wear is very close to yours...almost exactly the same...

so consider me as part of the one percentile i guess.. ...do you really think it's that small?...no wonder i always feel like an outsider...

you know...i can be wearing the sloppiest messiest clothes with messy hair and no make up , but i'll still get comments from men as i walk by...some may think this is a compliment, but i feel threatened by this...the number of women who are raped is astonishing...i have been fortunate enough to have escaped this horror so far...but i still have half my life ahead of me...anything could happen...so the last thing i want to do is attract more attention to myself...because then i feel more like a target or potential victim than some sort of powerful diva...if i can't run or kick in my clothes i feel way too vulnerable...that's why i don't wear manolos...they are too spindly and you can only teeter in them...an easy target...

Its really sad isn't it that women can feel like this in these supposedly emancipated times? Personally I don't fear for my personal safety but that is probably a lot to do with where I live (although i did get attacked by a nutter guy once but I got away before he could do anything - through quick wit-edness I hasten to add!!!). Basically because there are hardly any women in my job or the industry sectors that I work in, a woman could be wearing a tent & she'd get drooled over like a slab of meat. I don't necessarily think its all the mens faults however....i think women ought to take responsibility for the way they promote themselves visually on a specific or a general level.

Gosh - do I sound like a bit a of a mad man hating - i don't mean to be. Its just frustrating thats all.

Also - its funny you mention manolos softgrey - I totally can't wear heels as I can't walk an inch in them!

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23-06-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeijames@Jun 23rd, 2004 - 1:24 pm


teenagers are different bc for the most part teenagers have parents who do or do not take responsibility for how their children dress...and at the end of the day, teenagers are teenagers...i expect them to dress inappropriately.

i'm talking about women. strong, independent women should not and do not have to look unattractive and desexualized in order to gain respect. you go to any office place in a cosmopolitan setting and you'll see women dressing provactively and stylishly (without necessarily being inappropriate). of course, middle america may be behind the curve but that's where i take issue. many women haven't learned that it's okay to dress like a woman at work. to not wear clunk heels and a square skirt. so now to report that these looks somehow represent the cutting edge is strange to me.

is it that we're confusing dressing sexy with dressing inappropriately?
Completely agree on the parents taking responsibility for how teenagers dress - don't know about the US but in the UK you can't really buy propre 'childrens' clothes anymore - all childrens clothes are mini-adult clothes. That is another topic of course which was recently covered in this section.

What you say about dressing appropriately is spot on thought - I try my hardest to do that - I try to retain my sense of style whilst dressing appropriately for my job. I wear skirt or trouser suits, i wear blouses, I wear jewellery & slight heeled shoes. I would never ever wear anything that resmebles a Dior outfit though....

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23-06-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeijames@Jun 23rd, 2004 - 12:24 pm
i love how women are willing to apologize for the men who abuse, brutalize, and oppress them...don't you think that addressing these larger social attitudes both in an individual and largescale way is the best way to correct this and not re-arranging how you dress to suit some man?

i love how you continue to put words in people's mouths...who's apologizing for these guys?!?!?!...

it is a statement of fact...
if you know there are snakes around, you take precautions not to get bitten...you can try to train the snakes not to bite, but if it's in their nature...every once in a while you will get attacked...to deny this fact is foolish...women also have to protect themselves...and i don't know where you live..but i live in NYC...pretty much the most metropolitan city in the world...

i don't see martha stewart in stiletto's and she's pretty damn powerful...look at oprah winfrey...
and i ask again ...who is apologizing for anyone...???

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23-06-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by helena@Jun 23rd, 2004 - 12:26 pm


Also - its funny you mention manolos softgrey - I totally can't wear heels as I can't walk an inch in them!
yeah helena...i was sort of attacked/approached a couple of times as a teen...also got away due to some quick thinking... but that is real...and it's out there all the time...

as far as the manolos... ...i wear heels quite frequently in the evenings...but usually boots or pumps which offer more support...i actually LOVE a good heel...
manolos in particular really offer very little support...and we also have that walk everywhere issue in ny...

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