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22-06-2004
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helena's Avatar
 
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Fashion/sex/politics
Why do you wear the clothes you wear?

Interested to hear views here.... I was interested (and a bit outraged) to read John Galliano's 'motivation' when he designs (i.e he wants to design clothes for women that make men want to f**k them). It led me to consider three things

one, what do women really want when they wear clothes (and do they really want to attract those men who just want to f**k them); I certainly do not - heaven forbid!

secondly, is it 'good' for women to be viewed by designers (not just JG) purely as objects of sexual desire - I kind of always thought, perhaps niavely, that designers were 'on our side' in the context of gender politics ; and

thirdly, what is sexy anyway? Surely not all men are constantly sex hungry....Is Galliano not insulting other men by this suggestion?

I know that this whole topic is subject to the usual 'eye of the beholder' caveat, and I know that Dior/Galliano are marketing to a particular woman but he is surely alienating a huge nuber of women with comments like that. Arguably, Tom Ford has tried to market his 'sexy' brand Gucci as stronger & more powerful without the same objectification that JG seems to propose, but does he really acheive a better result for us women (take the 'G' in the pubic hair - i mean it was pure tackiness dressed up with a slick ad)? mmmmm What about Versace/Cavalli???

What do you think?

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22-06-2004
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I think the pop culture is full of vulgarity and they cater to it, that's all. It's a phase, and it will go away. But to anwer your questions,

1. I think women just want to be desired, but the problem is that most of the times men's desire doesn't go much further than sex.
2.The answer is "Mu." Mu means that the question is out of context of a yes or no answer. I think you should reverse the scenario and point the question at women. Do they want to be viewed by the designers as sex objects? If not, then why does trash sell?
3. For me, sexy comes in two tiers. Tier one is purely sexual, I see a hot woman and I want to f88k her, it's a natural superficial impulse. I don't want anything else from her, even if she did. Tier two is the depth of sexuality, for me it entails an element of mystery and uniqness. This is a woman who stays in my head for more than a second that it takes for my gaze to travle from one hot woman to the next. It is a woman I would want to get to know, and not a belly bearing bimbo.

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22-06-2004
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Why are women so important...men can be desired too...

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22-06-2004
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Great topic Helena!

I think sex or sexiness is different for every designer. It certainly doesn't have everything to do with the anecdotes of the Galliano's or Tom Fords of the world,at all. That's their own provocations, and its really just a big marketing strategy. Sex sells.

When I think sexy,I don't think of nudity or brashness. On the contrary,I find mystery(even for men too)or a bit of subversion quite enticing. And regarding clothes,I think of the way something moves or a powerful structure that can evoke confidence or sort of armour.

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22-06-2004
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i know what you mean....this has worried me ever since i was old enough to care.
why is womens fashion so sexed up??

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22-06-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by faust@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 12:04 pm

2.The answer is "Mu." Mu means that the question is out of context of a yes or no answer. I think you should reverse the scenario and point the question at women. Do they want to be viewed by the designers as sex objects? If not, then why does trash sell?
3. For me, sexy comes in two tiers. Tier one is purely sexual, I see a hot woman and I want to f88k her, it's a natural superficial impulse. I don't want anything else from her, even if she did. Tier two is the depth of sexuality, for me it entails an element of mystery and uniqness. This is a woman who stays in my head for more than a second that it takes for my gaze to travle from one hot woman to the next. It is a woman I would want to get to know, and not a belly bearing bimbo.
Faust - you are correct of course - why do women want to buy trash - maybe because they see a slick Gucci ad & think thats how to attract a partner..... I guess we aren't very far at all from our atavistic selves at the end of the day. I just wish that people could move on from the crude-ness that seems so prevail in so many areas of modern westernised life - fashion, tv, literature even. I know its all down to the old addage that 'sex sells' but a bit of intellectual ambition is a good thing surely. I am so bored with being bombarded with sexual images.

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22-06-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by helena+Jun 22nd, 2004 - 12:22 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (helena @ Jun 22nd, 2004 - 12:22 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-faust@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 12:04 pm

2.The answer is "Mu." Mu means that the question is out of context of a yes or no answer. I think you should reverse the scenario and point the question at women. Do they want to be viewed by the designers as sex objects? If not, then why does trash sell?
3. For me, sexy comes in two tiers. Tier one is purely sexual, I see a hot woman and I want to f88k her, it's a natural superficial impulse. I don't want anything else from her, even if she did. Tier two is the depth of sexuality, for me it entails an element of mystery and uniqness. This is a woman who stays in my head for more than a second that it takes for my gaze to travle from one hot woman to the next. It is a woman I would want to get to know, and not a belly bearing bimbo.
Faust - you are correct of course - why do women want to buy trash - maybe because they see a slick Gucci ad & think thats how to attract a partner..... I guess we aren't very far at all from our atavistic selves at the end of the day. I just wish that people could move on from the crude-ness that seems so prevail in so many areas of modern westernised life - fashion, tv, literature even. I know its all down to the old addage that 'sex sells' but a bit of intellectual ambition is a good thing surely. I am so bored with being bombarded with sexual images. [/b][/quote]
Unfortunately you are a part of about 1% of total population. One can't help but realize and accept (and I myself have a hard time accepting) that majority of the population aren't what you'd call a model human being...

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22-06-2004
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there's something missing in this conversation. being sexual or sexy is just like being fashionable or stylish....you either are or you aren't. it does not depend on the clothes or the brands or how its worn. you can look at someone and immediately tell whether or not they have that innate thing that sets them apart from the masses.

the sad part about this quality is that this intangible thing does not sell clothes. you can't tell someone that buying a baby pink dior dress will not make them look like maggie rizer did in a vogue editorial. that no amount of makeup, dieting, or clothing can change them into that image.

some people just have it...they can look sexy in a pair of overalls and fashionable in a pair of rain boots...but for the others that don't, i think it's kind of pointless to try to discourage that purchase...bc we all know that that person is not going to actually look into themselves and find the confidence necessary to become that sultry fashionista...they are just going to continue to imitate and pose. and i think that's more than any designer can ask for.

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22-06-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeijames@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 12:56 pm
there's something missing in this conversation. being sexual or sexy is just like being fashionable or stylish....you either are or you aren't. it does not depend on the clothes or the brands or how its worn. you can look at someone and immediately tell whether or not they have that innate thing that sets them apart from the masses.

the sad part about this quality is that this intangible thing does not sell clothes. you can't tell someone that buying a baby pink dior dress will not make them look like maggie rizer did in a vogue editorial. that no amount of makeup, dieting, or clothing can change them into that image.

some people just have it...they can look sexy in a pair of overalls and fashionable in a pair of rain boots...but for the others that don't, i think it's kind of pointless to try to discourage that purchase...bc we all know that that person is not going to actually look into themselves and find the confidence necessary to become that sultry fashionista...they are just going to continue to imitate and pose. and i think that's more than any designer can ask for.
I have to disagree. I feel that sexiness and style are both highly subjective. Everyone is sexy to someone and what one person considers unstylish is tops to someone else. I think the problem is people do not know how to think for themselves and allow the media, fashion industry etc. to tell them how they should view the world. We allow our judgments to be clouded by those who seek to profit from our skewered perspectives. The perceptions of style and sexiness are also used to discriminate against people and raise one person over another. The fashion industry, gossip rags and entertainment media would have to all go out of business if there weren't ''celebrities" and everyone was viewed on the same level. It's in their best interests to make sure their standards of beauty and style remain the status quo.

Why should someone want to look like Maggie Rizer? Why shouldn't they just be happy to look like themselves? What makes her special? It's stereotypes and the idealization of women that put someone like Maggie on a pedestal-it's not that she is actually better than anyone else. It's makeup and clothing (and airbrushing) that make Maggie (and all other models) look the way she does.

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22-06-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeijames@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 12:56 pm
there's something missing in this conversation. being sexual or sexy is just like being fashionable or stylish....you either are or you aren't. it does not depend on the clothes or the brands or how its worn. you can look at someone and immediately tell whether or not they have that innate thing that sets them apart from the masses.

I can believe that... and it's not all about looks either. It's the chemistry you feel with that person that makes you want to jump their bones.

Personally, I feel sexiest when I'm comfortable. So for me, it's something fitted but not too tight and slightly boyish in style. I can't do sexy unless I'm in my own element. Dressing too sexy all the time creates an illusion that your true self cannot compete with once you become undone. The fantasy is over once the clothes are off.

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22-06-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by stylegurrl@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 1:38 pm
I have to disagree. I feel that sexiness and style are both highly subjective. Everyone is sexy to someone and what one person considers unstylish is tops to someone else. I think the problem is people do not know how to think for themselves and allow the media, fashion industry etc. to tell them how they should view the world. We allow our judgments to be clouded by those who seek to profit from our skewered perspectives. The perceptions of style and sexiness are also used to discriminate against people and raise one person over another. The fashion industry, gossip rags and entertainment media would have to all go out of business if there weren't ''celebrities" and everyone was viewed on the same level. It's in their best interests to make sure their standards of beauty and style remain the status quo.

Why should someone want to look like Maggie Rizer? Why shouldn't they just be happy to look like themselves? What makes her special? It's stereotypes and the idealization of women that put someone like Maggie on a pedestal-it's not that she is actually better than anyone else. It's makeup and clothing (and airbrushing) that make Maggie (and all other models) look the way she does.
actually i think you agree with me...it's in its subjectivity that makes sex appeal or style unattainable. you can't buy something that will MAKE you sexy or stylish.

and my point is that that type of mentality isn't one that drives people to the cash register. people are insecure and people do want to buy a sense of confidence. and we can't reasonably expect all of those people to come to the epiphany that its nothing on the outside but on the inside...

that's why the fashion industry exists for the most part...there are those of us (like most here i would assume) who simply love fashion and wear what pleases us deep down, but there is that majority that buys (and buys in bulk) to fill something that may never be filled.

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22-06-2004
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i love how a bunch of MEN answered this question about why women dress the way they do??!!!

i have a lot to say on this matter...so i will wait until i have more time to think about it...

and faust...i'm a little disappointed...do you really think that women just want to be desired?...sounds pretty narrow-minded to me...

i am far more interested in being respected and treated as an equal...rather than an object ...
before i am a woman...i am a PERSON!!!

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22-06-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by softgrey@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 2:42 pm
i am far more interested in being respected and treated as an equal...rather than an object ...
before i am a woman...i am a PERSON!!!
...why does a woman have to strip herself of her sexuality in order to be respected? men most certainly do not.

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22-06-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeijames+Jun 22nd, 2004 - 2:48 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (mikeijames @ Jun 22nd, 2004 - 2:48 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-softgrey@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 2:42 pm
i am far more interested in being respected and treated as an equal...rather than an object ...
before i am a woman...i am a PERSON!!!
...why does a woman have to strip herself of her sexuality in order to be respected? men most certainly do not. [/b][/quote]
who said they did?...you're putting words in my mouth...

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22-06-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by softgrey@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 2:42 pm
and faust...i'm a little disappointed...do you really think that women just want to be desired?...sounds pretty narrow-minded to me...
no i don't think that women just want to be desired, i think that if a woman dresses sexy her aim is to be desired. i'm not saying that she wants to be sexually desired by the onlookers, maybe they just want to look beautiful, or be admired by their SO or whatever, one or the other is still a form of wanting to be desired. i'm not sure what's wrong with what I said?

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