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15-05-2005
  16
etre soi-meme
 
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very interesting discussion
to be honest, i'm not sure i understand how this could function in real life,
but i like the idea of everyone participating in the design of their own clothes etc.
since i dont think i'll live to experience this in my lifetime, i dont really care for the
futuristic scenarios regarding fashion.

agreed with travolta's point on merging fashion with advanced technology in creating cost/design efficient products eg Issey Miyake's POC project, but mixing clothing with chips, is not my politically/sociologically correct cup of tea.
in case this hi-tech scenario evolves, i can safely predict an evolvement of the already evident need for more handcrafted clothes/accessories, a renaissance of the artisanal, of master cutting, of detailed handwork.

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15-05-2005
  17
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but...we're ..not Sims!!

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15-05-2005
  18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meme527
no wonder there is such a race to patent everything, including DNA - if yu can't make money on mass (macro) production, you make money on the individual elements right?

i mean, if you can use the nano-technology inside your shoe to change its design or shape even, erasing it like an etch-a-sketch (c), shaping it like silly putty(c), then i imagine everyone will get the same shoe prototype, like a blank slate, in which case we all become our own designers. but someone is still going to want to be making money off of this - so there must be some planned obsolescence somewhere. well,i guess everything wears out....

personally i love the idea of shape shifting, but i suppose the big money will be in the nanobytes or genetic info itself, right? like microsoft (c) and their programs. people will have to come together and make "dior-compatible" or "miyake-platform" clothing, and the indepedents scratching away as always. and no doubt some rogues will be out hacking people's underwear....

this is all new to me, but the more i read the thread the more interesting it becomes, because you are questioning the function of clothing, looking at it from different angles by projecting into the future. great thread, i'm looking forward to hearing more.

meme

ps: good article, thanks travolta.
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com...hp/t35964.html
your welcome. that is a good point in patenting processes, that's where the real money is...think the recipe for coca cola. issey miyake patented a-poc., but he eventually wants everyone to have access to this technology. its not that far fetched..its like denim.

i think advances in clothing, shoes with first come in the form of the shoe being capable of sustaining itself, basically fixing the exisiting problems instead of adding on technological novelty. for instance, like the non wrinkling shirts..eliminating the iron esp. for people on the go..on business trips etc..and completely stain repellent clothing eliminating washing detergent, shoes--coming up w/ a some sort of anti-perspirant fabric eliminating the need to wear socks..complete waterproofing so no matter how wet the conditions are it would be like your feet are ziplocked. it's not really an issue of when this stuff will begin to happen..its all being researched, has been researched and is being applied. it's not holographic computer chip ridden clothing..thats so 90's :p but more like regular looking knitted sweaters which can repair themselves on a microscopic level and never unravel..it would stay in perfect condition, and you'd never have to dry clean. how great would that be?? that is why i think looking at biological systems is key, because smart clothing means clothing that will be able to sustain itself like an natural system..i see it like evolving plants w/ defense mechanisms, which naturally regenerates.

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Last edited by travolta; 15-05-2005 at 11:50 AM.
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15-05-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travolta
but more like regular looking knitted sweaters which can repair themselves on a microscopic level and never unravel..it would stay in perfect condition, and you'd never have to dry clean. how great would that be?? that is why i think looking at biological systems is key, because smart clothing means clothing that will be able to sustain itself like an natural system..i see it like evolving plants w/ defense mechanisms, which naturally regenerates.

The only problem with that analogy is that the recent "advancements' in biotechnology is destructive to the self-sustaining biological systems. Google or take a look at Amazon.com for Vandana Shiva.

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15-05-2005
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thanks faust for the heads up. i understand i sound a bit like jumping on the bandwagon of new technology and all the 'magical' things which will happen as a result of it...i understand it is also opening up a whole can of worms. i think someone said that it is not nuclear destruction we should be afraid of but biological warfare..or something along the lines of messing w/ the natural world. i found this website on vandand shiva. i thought i'd post this:

Dr. Vandana Shiva: The image of science, and particularly streams like genetic engineering is always that somehow these things happen spontaneously, it comes out of human ingenuity and brilliance, and someone has a bright idea and new disciplines emerge. Which used to be the case, way back in the past. But since the period of the industrial revolution when Bacon said there's a marriage between knowledge and power that spontaneous emergence of ideas is not the way science has grown. Science has grown through deliberate direction through financing of certain kinds. The roots of genetic engineering go back to the thirties when molecular biology was planted as a new science with no foundations. They didn't know what it would be. They knew two things. One that eugenics had lost repute in Europe and the project of eugenics had to have a disguised presentation to the public. It couldn't be so overtly social. It had to be rooted in a so-called scientific basis. It had to be rooted more in biology. The entire enterprise was financed through the Rockefeller Foundation. It was called the social psychology program. The only thing they knew at that point was let's find something deeper in the way things work biologically to say that this is inevitable. That selection is inevitable. The selection of human beings is inevitable because they are the way they are biologically determined to be -- poor, criminals, etc. -- the kind of arguments they had used for the eugenics movement in Europe in the past.

They first named a theoretical construction biological atoms. They didn't know what it would look like. They just said they are biological atoms that determine traits. It took them fifty years of manipulation, of rewarding, of giving about ten Nobel prizes to themselves as a club of men doing a certain kind of science, connected to each other through the financing. Then you get Watson and Crick being rewarded for the DNA structure. But that the DNA structure is an atom that determines all traits was named fifty years before. If it wasn't Crick and Watson it would have been another group of scientists. But it was being developed in that way.

The two reasons they went this route were first, as I said, to get away from being accused of having social bias. By putting it in biology and putting it into the atoms of biology they could argue that this was in the nature of things. This was the state of affairs and this way they could get away from the political responsibility of engaging in basically political acts and putting it in the domain of science.

The second, and this fed over time into the industrialization of genetic engineering and biotechnology, is that they could see that the deeper you can manipulate living structures the more you can control food and medicine. We're getting that new round of propaganda now which is suggesting that somehow manipulation at the genetic level always gives you superior products, which is not at all the case. It could give you higher risks. They are just using the fact that you are intervening at a deeper level in living structures and equating it with superior, with human progress. There is no correlation between these two things.

The fact that people are not accepting it is clear from the fact that people are rejecting genetically-engineered foods. They are not treating genetic manipulation as somehow a superior food production system. Are we going to see more and more of these kind of questions? I think it is absolutely key to not forget that the roots of genetic engineering are in eugenics and as genetic engineering moves from agriculture to human manipulation we are going to be right back with a very vicious eugenics program.

http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/shiva.html

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Last edited by travolta; 15-05-2005 at 12:32 PM.
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15-05-2005
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faust, do you know anything about the marine biological laboratory or the national biological laboratory?

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15-05-2005
  22
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I just feel... that some things are better without the help of technology. I'm not yet educated enough on this new concept to decide whether or not it is. Though this concept is very far down the line (as I see it, anyway), I think it would be hard for many to accept...

A very interesting article.

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15-05-2005
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Just wait'll you have to sign a licensing agreement to wear clothes.

And if the GMO crops thing bothers you, clothing that's by some definitions alive may be a bigger can of silkworms

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15-05-2005
  24
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didn't ani difranco say "every tool is a weapon if you hold it right"?

(travolta quoted)

Dr. Vandana Shiva:They are just using the fact that you are intervening at a deeper level in living structures and equating it with superior, with human progress. There is no correlation between these two things.

i think that we have been trained to think of evolution as a process of improvement, of progress towards something superior, rather than as random mutations, some of which prove to be longer-lived than others.

and i think that it is a good point that scientific researchis funded, often by the military or by wealthy individuals/corporations, through universities and colleges, and that that research is not without bias.

Dr Shiva contradicts him/her (?) self when implying that there is a causal relationship between 1) social engineers and scientists wanting something to prove racial/ethnic superiority and 2) the discovery of DNA. either DNA exists or it doesn't, right? these kinds of illogical connections weaken an argument that may have good points, IMHO.

because *intention* is everything. how the information is used, and who controls its use, is the real ethical question. if you must think of DNA as a property (which is as absurd as thinking of earth and sky as individual property, but these are the times we live in) DNA is the ultimate collectively, joint owned property. every living structure shares it. we share vast amounts of genetic information with every mammal on the planet, and quite a lot with bugs and plants and parasites. do we take that information and use it to help heal the planet (and to play dress up and grow feathers and night vision eyes and gills), or do we use it to create a master race where someone owns the right to the air you breathe and the microbes in it?

either way, it's clear, we are going to go somewhere! this is such an interesting discussion, i'm really enjoying it.

meme

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15-05-2005
  25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meme527
we share vast amounts of genetic information with every mammal on the planet, and quite a lot with bugs and plants and parasites. do we take that information and use it to help heal the planet (and to play dress up and grow feathers and night vision eyes and gills), or do we use it to create a master race where someone owns the right to the air you breathe and the microbes in it?
meme
One group does this:
>to help heal the planet (and to play dress up and grow feathers and night vision eyes and gills), <

Another group does this:
> or do we use it to create a master race where someone owns the right to the air you breathe and the microbes in it? <

When group two tries to enforce over group 1, group 1 assigns its best mutants to the task, and you get a conflict from which very good sci fi emanates. Maybe dragons slipped through from the future.

CBCB

PS: The novel Oryx & Crake by Margaret Atwood goes into mutant-land, with intriguing results supposedly - I haven't read it.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...l/-/0385721676


Last edited by cbcb; 15-05-2005 at 07:33 PM.
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15-05-2005
  26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lena
interesting far fetched article from cnn.com on a possible, virtual/digital future of fashion:

..."BT futurologist Ian Pearson, who is speaking at the London College of Fashion this month about the potential for "interrogating fashions," told CNN that technology was beginning to interact with the fashion world.

He said in a few years time, people would appear one way in the physical world and have a whole range of digital appearances in the "augmented reality" and virtual worlds, which would become a huge growth area for fashion.

"These new worlds will need to be designed, and fashion will play a similar role to that in the real world," Pearson said.

"At the moment you choose which clothes you want to wear and you look the same to everyone. But there's some people out there for whom you would like them to see you in a different way. You will be able present yourself in different ways to different people using this digital fashion concept"...
Pearson should reference William Gibson, who anticipated this concept back in 1997:

http://www.williamgibsonbooks.com/books/idoru.asp

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15-05-2005
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Remind me never to go looking for pictures again. The journal Indian Pediatrics has a case study of a 'True Tail in a Neonate' from 1998, with pix. I'll decline to provide the link. In this case, parents were urged to have it removed - and refused, even upon followup consultations! Which means, unless something's changed since, there's an Indian kid about 7 years old running around w/a tail.

(No to belittle the situation. Just interesting what genetics are 'acceptable' vs. shunned.)

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15-05-2005
  28
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I love the idea of emotionally responsive clothing. I'm not sure if I'd like the result.

Well...actually, I'm not sure if I do like the idea of it. One of my favorite things about fashion is finding pieces and ways to express my emotions, so this would just make it too easy. Hmmm...lots to think about...

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15-05-2005
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^ i doubt it'll ever happen, in our lifetime at least.

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15-05-2005
  30
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meme527 and cbcb: you two should get together and script a Discovery channel thing on this - you seem to get to the root of some of the problems directly!

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