[Zazie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TianSoFine ^I'm saying that the comments are about the look. I thought you said the opposite, I may have misunderstood your post. My point is that I'm sure members wouldn't think that the atelier doesn't put in an effort or doesn't have a high level of craftsmanship. Therefore, the subject of discussion is the look, and not the behind-the-scenes work which you were referring to. So I'm see everyone realizes that it is a couture collections, but people can say it's very RTW the same way people can say a Chanel dress is "not Chanel".

So most of the posts here explained that haute couture isn't about "looks", i.e. haute couture *can* look like day wear, jackets, trousers, etc. So if you prefer haute couture to look a certain way, eg. a lavish Italian opera, you can say so but it has nothing to do with what haute couture *is*. You can't say because a collection does not fulfill your dreams about what haute couture should look like, it is *not* haute couture.

[TianSoFine]

The alternative to Raf's collection collection is not lavish Italian opera costumes. I'd like to point to Mr. Dior's own work as an example. I think you should stop making generalizations about the wants and thoughts of people who don't like Raf's first collection. Going back to my analogy, you can look at a Chanel dress and say it's not Chanel even though you know it was made by Chanel. I can also look at a couture dress and know that it's couture but still say that it doesn't look very couture. And I don't see anything wrong with trousers and day jackets in couture collections. Raf's collection had plenty of dresses so that's not my point anyway. I also find it hard to agree that anything in fashion can be not about looks to a certain extent.

I would also like to point out that I've never said that I myself don't think the latest Dior collection looks haute couture. But I can definitely see where be people are coming from when they say that and I don't think you can make generalizations about the people who do believe that. I'm not sure where exactly I stand on whether or not it looks haute couture, but the more I see pictures, the more I feel like that collection had very ready-to-wear qualities. Anyway, I just didn't like that collection in general.

I feel like I've beaten the Chanel analogy to death and you're still not understanding what I'm trying to say so I won't talk about this anymore. I think we'll have to agree to disagree because we both clearly have unchangeable opinions.

[Zazie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TianSoFine The alternative to Raf's collection collection is not lavish Italian opera costumes. I'd like to point to Mr. Dior's own work as an example. I think you should stop making generalizations about the wants and thoughts of people who don't like Raf's first collection. Going back to my analogy, you can look at a Chanel dress and say it's not Chanel even though you know it was made by Chanel. I can also look at a couture dress and know that it's couture but still say that it doesn't look very couture. And I don't see anything wrong with trousers and day jackets in couture collections. Raf's collection had plenty of dresses so that's not my point anyway. I also find it hard to agree that anything in fashion can be not about looks to a certain extent. I would also like to point out that I've never said that I myself don't think the latest Dior collection looks haute couture. But I can definitely see where be people are coming from when they say that and I don't think you can make generalizations about the people who do believe that. I'm not sure where exactly I stand on whether or not it looks haute couture, but the more I see pictures, the more I feel like that collection had very ready-to-wear qualities. Anyway, I just didn't like that collection in general. I feel like I've beaten the Chanel analogy to death and you're still not understanding what I'm trying to say so I won't talk about this anymore. I think we'll have to agree to disagree because we both clearly have unchangeable opinions.

There is a Chanel "look", as Chanel is a designer house with a distinct identity. You can say there is a "Versace look", a "Valentino look", we all understand what it means. There is no haute couture "look" as there is no distinct criteria that haute couture has to look this way or look that way, the criteria is based on OTHER factors, which we all discussed here. If you cannot see the difference, then there is also no point talking to a wall.

[fashionista-ta]

^ I know haute couture is by no means homogeneous, but wouldn't it be fair to say it does have some codes, such as embellishment? The beading, the featherwork, everything done by the little French ateliers (many of whom supply RTW as well as HC). To me anyway, haute couture wouldn't be haute couture without that, even if not all the designers use it.

[Zazie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fashionista-ta ^ I know haute couture is by no means homogeneous, but wouldn't it be fair to say it does have some codes, such as embellishment? The beading, the featherwork, everything done by the little French ateliers (many of whom supply RTW as well as HC). To me anyway, haute couture wouldn't be haute couture without that, even if not all the designers use it.

Yes, I do agree with you about the haute couture codes. Significant work should go into an haute couture piece. However, I think it's not only the embellishment that count, but also the other efforts that go into the making of an haute couture piece, such as challenging construction that would take extra skilled hands, expertise and time to make, or fantastic draping that takes experimentation in cut (bias, etc.) to realize. They do have to be special to qualify as haute couture, but not all these special qualities are apparent on the surface. Some would take close examination in order to see, eg. Chanel HC, a collection I do not care for, has unique and fantastic HC details. I find Chanel dreadful and matronly in terms of design, but won't ever say it's RTW-like, because for sure the work that went into each piece is the best that HC offers. I used to enjoy Dior HC under early Galliano, but it got more and more formulaic, and worse, grotesque and shabbily finished when photographed up close, which to me lost HC qualities.