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11-10-2006
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^ well said Caffeine

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11-10-2006
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"There are MANY fine designers and craftsmen in China, and it's unfair of you to compare Hermes studio with the "sweatshops". Don't you know that there are many garments with rubbish quality made in France, England and Italy? Do your own research and think by using your own brain, doll"

Won't notice how rude you are
However, please quote me blaming the chineses
I have never blamed anyone but the LVMH people
Of course chinese people can be as skilled as french ones (and of course some t-shirts made in italy are rubbish)
However 2, do you think that burberry made in china will be made in those factories? I don't believe so...
That's the same with italy. Italy has Bottega Veneta, Loro Piana, Berluti, etc. Why are Dior clothes poor in term of quality?
That's the same with Switzerland. Switzerland has Patek Philippe. Why Dior watches are so fragile?

You are overinterpretating my mind, and in the wrong way, but I really, really don't care, it's going to be pointless.

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11-10-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian
i remember reading that prada was sourcing a factory in china.
prada is manufacturing most of its production in china

*people, please remember to stay cool and polite even when you disagree with some ideas expressed here, it's more appropriate and will help this discussion develop in the correct direction, which is echanging ideas and information

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11-10-2006
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Quote:
You can't deny that something made by a skilled worker in Europe will be better in term of quality that something mass produced in overseas sweatshops can you?
...are you not claiming that products produced in China are of a lower quality than goods made in Europe?

For one thing, it is quite evident that you are assuming that Burberry (and possibly other made-in-China brands e.g. Prada) are going to use "sweatshops" to manufacture their products. For starters, that is a very rash conclusion and certainly doesn't do any merit to these established brands. Also you appear to equate "cheap labour" with "sweatshops" and "bad quality" and again, that is a very unfair conclusion simply because how much you pay the workers isn't necessarily tied to the quality of the products. Of course, you can't pay them cruelly meagre amounts, but in the case of luxury brands I do not believe the conglomerates in charge are actually daft enough to pay these people inhumane salaries. What "cheap labour" essentially refers to these days are the minimal salaries that workers can be satisfied with. The main reason why people are moving their factories to China is simply because Chinese employees are satisfied more easily with slightly lower salaries than those in more developed countries. I must remind everyone that China is, after all, still a developing nation when compared to more advanced countries such as the United States, England or France. The living standards in China aren't always as high as those in more developed countries (I can't say the same for major urban centres such as Shanghai or Hong Kong, however) and hence the people are more willing to work for lower salaries. As long as they can make a proper living out of their jobs, it doesn't matter if they're paid less than their Western counterparts.

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oh, and Burberry umbrella. I don't have a problem with them producing umbrella in England. I don't buy a Burberry umbrella anyway. The problem is that they will probably end up charging you $500 for such an umbrella to be able to afford Kate Moss' ads. Are you going to be able to afford a $500 umbrella or willing to spend $500 for the check marks?
Excellent point, Caffeine.

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Last edited by EdanChrysler; 11-10-2006 at 08:27 PM.
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12-10-2006
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"Chinese employees are satisfied "

SATISFIED?
How can you say that chinese workers are "satisfied"
Have you ever been to China? Have you ever talked to chinese/other asians hard workers? You are talking about a country where human rights are actually hardly respected.
But yes, the ones who will work for Burberry will certainly earn a huge amount of money, buy a lot of Burberry products, go in holidays in europe, etc etc

+ and yes, i would buy a 500$ umbrella. I've already have actually, but it wasn't made in china - I wouldn't have paid this amount of money for a made in china one anyway, and yes, the quality of that Burberry umbrella is OBVIOUSLY not the same that my Hermès one.

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12-10-2006
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For the record, I grew up in China and let me tell you that I can not tolerate words like this. (Lena, I understand the rules, so I am trying to be as appropriate as I can.)Do not interpret how we Chinese think about our own lives. Let me tell you something: without those factories that produce consumer products, countless people will be homeless and jobless and starve to death because China no longer needs all the agricultural workforce due to modernization. The world is blessed that people don't need to worry about Chinese peasants like they do about African peasants. You do not need to donate money to Chinese because we found a way to adapt to the modern industrial world.

My family's jewelry business hires many Chinese workers migrated from rural areas. They learned the skills, and then they worked hard. They are not underpaid by Chinese standard, and they managed to buy apartments in Beijing and move their families over to the city to have better lives. Their kids will go to school in Beijing and then get even better jobs. Our customers include first ladies Mrs. Carter and Mrs. Clinton. Everybody is happy with our products, and they can't be found anywhere else. We hired the best diamond craftsman from HongKong and customers show appreciation.

As far as I know, people are happy that they have opportunities to lead better lives. It's called global competition, and if the workers in Europe have to take the entire August off for vacation, then companies have to count on the hardworking Chinese to make production. If the small studios in France can't make a thousand pieces of garment for Prada, then they have to turn to the Chinese to complete the order. The reason is that the Chinese are smart, hardworking, and cheaper at this moment due to lower living cost and lack of better options.

If you are not happy with your umbrella, just return it. We work hard and we need respect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by belletrist
"Chinese employees are satisfied "

SATISFIED?
How can you say that chinese workers are "satisfied"
Have you ever been to China? Have you ever talked to chinese/other asians hard workers? You are talking about a country where human rights are actually hardly respected.
But yes, the ones who will work for Burberry will certainly earn a huge amount of money, buy a lot of Burberry products, go in holidays in europe, etc etc

+ and yes, i would buy a 500$ umbrella. I've already have actually, but it wasn't made in china - I wouldn't have paid this amount of money for a made in china one anyway, and yes, the quality of that Burberry umbrella is OBVIOUSLY not the same that my Hermès one.

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12-10-2006
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It's funny how easily you say "we work hard"
Well haha so YOU work hard to make umbrellas/clothes in China?
What you say about globalization "people in europe go on vacation" shows that you hardly know something about sociology. You'd better read Pierre Bourdieu than telling me that YOU need respect, because I respect chinese people - who doesn't anyway? - , and have spent many monthes in Asia - and the conditions of life are not good, but you certainly know it better than me...
I don't blame China. I don't deny that China can produce good products. It would be stupid for a chinese luxury brad to produce outside china. But european/american brands shouldn't go there just to cut the cost. People are working hard, here, in France, too, even if we have wonderful things like free hospitals, vacations, 35 hours-a-week working time for most employee, etc etc. Being unemployed in Europe is not funny. And yes, people were working for Burberry. But then its perfectly ok "sorry, you cost us too much *but we gain billions every year *, we'd better go elsewhere"
If you don't see what's wrong, then there must be a problem...

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12-10-2006
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I don't see it wrong. At the end of the day, it's how the economics works. At the end of the day, the entire society benefits from outsourcing because you guys, and whoever own LVMH stocks will benefit from the dividend, and the French government gains more tax from the profits. there is nothing you can do about it.The wheels are turning forward already.

And if people lose jobs in Europe, they have to adapt to the new era and find better ways to make money. They need to learn new skills, just as how the Chinese peasants learned how to sew clothes or cut stones. You have to move forward to develop, otherwise you'll lose the game.


Last edited by Caffeine; 12-10-2006 at 11:27 AM.
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12-10-2006
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Hmmm I would prefer you to talk in term of humanity than in term of economy
First, I recognize that I don't have anything to tell about poverty because most of the people in my family never had to work. But I think I can imagine how hard it is to loose you job

Second. If Burberry/Prada want to open their owns factories in China, where workers are decently paid, then it's not that wrong (haven't say it was ok but...). The problem is that I think they will licensing their products, and absolutelky don't worry about how the people will manufacture their products. Which is bad

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Trust me, the Chinese workers are better off with the manufacturing jobs. The French will eventually be better off, too. It's a win-win game.
Where and when did you go to China to cause such concern? Luckily you didn't go thirty years ago, because that was really bad. I personally experienced the difficulties back in the years, and yes due to hard work (as an architect and real estate professional though, but no difference from a worker sewing clothes or making umbrellas ), my family and I live well. Based on personal experience, there really isn't so called humanity issues. Making less than the French/American counterparts is better than starving to death, right?
You are lucky that you don't have to work. My cousins don't work either, but what I saw is that if you don't work, you tend to lose touch with the society. I'm glad and I think that I am lucky that I work.
don't worry about the quality issues. If the Prada products are poorly made, we'll stop buying, and then Prada will realize that they don't do a good enough job on quality control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by belletrist
Hmmm I would prefer you to talk in term of humanity than in term of economy
First, I recognize that I don't have anything to tell about poverty because most of the people in my family never had to work. But I think I can imagine how hard it is to loose you job

Second. If Burberry/Prada want to open their owns factories in China, where workers are decently paid, then it's not that wrong (haven't say it was ok but...). The problem is that I think they will licensing their products, and absolutelky don't worry about how the people will manufacture their products. Which is bad

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12-10-2006
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words largest growing luxury market is china.. this may make you think how the west will exploit the whole 'made in china' issue

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12-10-2006
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whenever i want to buy a high priced item and see the made in china tag it certainly gives me pause.


did anyone read the story about louis vuitton in this mondays wall street? the story says that instead of outsourcing louis vuitton is just training their workers do do additional jobs. the story also says which companies outsource and which dont. you can read the whole thing here.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06282/728653-28.stm

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12-10-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucy92
whenever i want to buy a high priced item and see the made in china tag it certainly gives me pause.


did anyone read the story about louis vuitton in this mondays wall street? the story says that instead of outsourcing louis vuitton is just training their workers do do additional jobs. the story also says which companies outsource and which dont. you can read the whole thing here.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06282/728653-28.stm
I think that in W magazine Nov. issue, there was a short article about Bottega Veneta opening a school for people to learn skills to make beautiful bags. The whole process is 3 yrs, and it's free. People really need good craftsmen in Europe. I wonder why the supply of the labor lags. Anybody knows?

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12-10-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucy92
whenever i want to buy a high priced item and see the made in china tag it certainly gives me pause.


did anyone read the story about louis vuitton in this mondays wall street? the story says that instead of outsourcing louis vuitton is just training their workers do do additional jobs. the story also says which companies outsource and which dont. you can read the whole thing here.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06282/728653-28.stm
actually my first reaction after reading the WSJ article is "is the quality going to go down?" I assumed that more specialized means know better about certain details or parts of the work, but apparently it's not how Vuitton looks at it. Also Vuitton has been making bags in Brazil. I'm not sure if anybody complained about that outsourcing.
btw, Ipods are made in China now. I placed an order last yr in Boston online, and then my ipod was shipped directly from Shanghai via FedEx overnight with my personalized name on the back.it's amazing.
Also in today's WSJ, they introduced a Chinese entrepreneur who started a company making solar power equipment and the business grew extremely well. It had a successful IPO at the end of 2005, and now most of the products are sold to Japan and Germany. I guess that people are getting used to 'made in china' products gradually.

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13-10-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucy92

did anyone read the story about louis vuitton in this mondays wall street? the story says that instead of outsourcing louis vuitton is just training their workers do do additional jobs. the story also says which companies outsource and which dont. you can read the whole thing here.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06282/728653-28.stm
there is already a discussion on this article here just moved this to the careers&education forums

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