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07-06-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhiannonmars
The jeans inner waistband lining (it had a fabric lining) came un sewn in after about 2-3 wears. Then he wore them for 6 months and there is a huge cheek to cheek hole in the bum, bottom is all ravled, and big hole in the knee. We sewed the bumm up a few times, but the jean is so thin, it wouldn't take!
Funny that gets mentioned on this thread..some people would pay HUNDREDS for jeans like that. I believe it's considered "deconstructed" lol

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07-06-2005
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excellent article, twilekboy. and frightening. thank you.

i'm going to post it!

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07-06-2005
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oh as far as deconstructed goes, try running over your jeans w/ a pick up truck, and tips for authentic paint splattering on either pants, or shoes...house painting seems to do the trick

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07-06-2005
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No problem Meme!

It's interesting you studied Product Design Travolta... I've considered taking Industrial design, although it would require me to go to school out-of-province again and I can't afford to do that anytime soon. I've also considered architecture as a sort of broad home base, but even that I don't know...

Marketing is really fascinating stuff, it reveals so much about us as humans. Part of me thinks problems of consumption (in which marketing plays such a big part) needs to be fought with equally cunning marketing. But is that really educating people, or just manipulating them? I guess it could do either... but the idea of starting a sustainable development and consumption "trend" makes me think about similar (albeit likely more rudimentary) goings-on during the oil-troubled 70s. They all wound up fizzling out like any other trend...

Perhaps the fact that our society's materialism has become so much more exaggerated and conspicuous truely reflects the end of the 20th Century... the dominant theme of that period being "modernism" and its demands of constant and exponential "progress..." the newer the better as it goes... to the point (I believe) that our lives are so detached from the very fundamental (material and social) aspects of human existence... food, water, shelter, community... things that used to occupy every moment of a persons life don't even register on the radar as we all just eat fast food, drink diet coke, and watch TV (or chat online )... Essentially, we're bored! Only a hundred years ago (and for thousands of years prior to that) we kept busy with matters of survival, and now that those are out of our hands, we don't know what to do with ourselves... SO we continuously imagine new products and things that are required for "the good life" (and therefore survival), and we go out and acquire them.

I suppose thats a rather dramatic generalisation, but I guess in one way or another it makes sense in my head, lol...

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07-06-2005
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good post there are a couple threads you might be interested in


http://www.thefashionspot.com/forums...t=26478&page=1

http://www.thefashionspot.com/forums...ad.php?t=27040

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08-06-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoexgal
I keep shopping to fill this void in me. Just bought a Balenciaga in Red. Don't know why. I know as soon as I stop obsessing over something I'm going to wanna buy something else. I was sitting in lecture tonight and my poli sci teacher was just talking and he said something that he took from Alexis De Tocqueville's Democracy in America. he said that he wanted to end the class with this book because he felt it was very relevent to society today. He said The text can teach us something profound about what is taking place right now. We are told to be part of a trash culture. We are always trapped withing this identity crisis. We are manipulated by sensationalistic media. The constant identity crisis can only be soothed by more and more consumption of useless goods. Our luxuries and goods are only succeeding in bringing us farther and farther apart from each other because we can only see ourselves as individuals. Instead of bringing each other together, we are driving each other away.

Rousseau says We are living in a time where we buy things to impress others and are always in competition with one another. A person who buys a nice car or expensive clothes is a slave to the gaze of the other. They are not trying to satisfy thyself but succombing to the critizisms of society and its demands.

What do you all think about this? Are we living in a materialistic society that fashion contributes to?
People need to start doing things that make them happy and not worry about what others will think of them. People need to start accepting themselves the way God (or whatever you believe in) created them.

Fashion definitely contributes to this vicious cycle of materialism. It constantly tells women they have to be thin/sexy/rich ect... The same goes for men too! They are being told they must own product A to be attractive to woman ect ect..

It's a sick culture. People are forgetting what really matters - family, faith, friends.

I don't begrudge anybody who wants to spend their money on expensive things... If that what makes them happy. If they are doing it just to look good, then I think it's unhealthy.

Me, I'm buy things that make me happy. I recently bought myself a new television because I wanted it... It's not something I plan on showing off to anybody. I bought it for my own happiness. I also buy clothes that make me feel comfortable... I'm not concerned about what others think when I'm wearing my cheap t-shirt. I really don't care. I'm happy.

Anyway, that is my 2 cents....

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08-06-2005
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great two cents purplemood, welcome to tFS

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08-06-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twilekboy
Perhaps the fact that our society's materialism has become so much more exaggerated and conspicuous truely reflects the end of the 20th Century... the dominant theme of that period being "modernism" and its demands of constant and exponential "progress..." the newer the better as it goes... to the point (I believe) that our lives are so detached from the very fundamental (material and social) aspects of human existence... food, water, shelter, community... things that used to occupy every moment of a persons life don't even register on the radar as we all just eat fast food, drink diet coke, and watch TV (or chat online )... Essentially, we're bored! Only a hundred years ago (and for thousands of years prior to that) we kept busy with matters of survival, and now that those are out of our hands, we don't know what to do with ourselves... SO we continuously imagine new products and things that are required for "the good life" (and therefore survival), and we go out and acquire them.

I suppose thats a rather dramatic generalisation, but I guess in one way or another it makes sense in my head, lol...
I think its a good point, I agree with it. Its also worth thinking about the fact that while we don't deserve to live in this relative (some might say excessive) comfort, if the southern hemisphere had been slightly more developed in the 15th century, they probably would have acted the same way, it is a part of human nature, so it is very difficult to change it.

Going back to an earlier point, despite the awful working conditions experienced in many factories in Asia, the countries that the factories were originally sited in, such as Japan, then later Taiwan and Korea, have experienced significant development in the periods since that initial investment, Taiwan and Korea now both classified as NICS (Newly Industrialised Countries) rather than LEDCS (Less Economically Developed Countries) as much of Asia is. In Korea a huge percentage of the population are university graduates, and pay is relatively high. Lucky Goldstar (better known as LG) have even sited a factory in South Wales, because labour there is cheaper than in Korea. Global shift towards Asian countries is creating many benefits, as well as the unfortunate downsides of exploitation. But with the comparative advantage of cheap labour over Europe, it is likely that investment will continue in Asia, so the problem is gradually getting better.

It is countries in Africa that now experience major problems. They often don't even have sweatshop factories to work in, and with growing agribusiness people are forced out of subsistence farming.

Its a bit off-topic (nothing whatsoever to do with fashion), but an example of the influence of a materialistic society is the farms that Tesco (a major British supermarket chain) buys its vegetables from. At a farm the workers have their nails inspected every day to ensure that they aren't too long so they don't damage the beans when they pick them. Then they aren't allowed to break the stalks off, they have to cut them with scissors. It reduces productivity, but they're willing to do it because otherwise they lose the contract, and the entire village, almost all of whom work on the farm, would then suffer. The intensive farming also causes erosion of the soil, in maybe 50 years time the village could be left with nothing but desert, because we demand perfect beans at such low prices. When its cheaper to fly beans from Africa than to buy those grown just down the road its clear that something must be wrong, the CAP just adds to the problems. We design everything to suit ourselves.

And just another note to AlexN (sorry): I do understand what you mean and i do agree with it, but taking it from an entirely basic, militant point of view: beauty is just a reason you want, as logos are a reason someone wants something else. Its materialistic in different ways, but its still materialistic. Neither can be condemned too seriously, particularly in our society. I think it is only the society itself that is the problem, not individuals within it, so while the difference between buying for beauty and buying to show off is a difference within society, from a view outside the society, either is materialistic.

Anyway thats my (badly explained) opinion, but everyone is of course entitled to disagree with it.

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08-06-2005
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This is all moving so fast!

True about those beans what's said above me...it is indeed a good example of making it all just perfect for ourselfs... Funny thing you mention the Africa thing too. We're destroying that continent too with the beans that are being planted there. Africa just is not a great farming land, unless you live near the Nile of course. So basically, we are destroying the world for our own sake, which hangs very much together with the materialism and consumerism. But ultimately, who is there to blame? I mean, we are here with the 6 billion of us, it's almost inevidable to harm the world in such way. So in this story, human kind is just the cause of materialism and consumerism. Makes sense I think....

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08-06-2005
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I get what you're saying, Paul. Thanks for the more in depth explanation.

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12-06-2005
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Interesting idea of political despotism created by materialism
Despotism defines good citizenship as someone who is passive, selfish and individualistic, worried about things that donít bear on the public, they are locked in themselves. They lack the capacity to speak in a public idiom, tyranny of the eye. As opposed to move out of oneself and speak to people in a way that builds a political community.
Despotism- Centralized administration, keeps people obsessed with their private self, wants docile subjects, promises people everything. Keeps people in a perpetual childhood, keeps people isolated, keeps citizens ignorant, promotes self obsession (egotism), its intended to paralyze our idea of what a political society could be..which is linked to capitalism..
Capitalism isolates people, makes them forget about the public

Just thought I would post our last lecture notes on Tocqueville

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12-06-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twilekboy
No problem Meme!

It's interesting you studied Product Design Travolta... I've considered taking Industrial design, although it would require me to go to school out-of-province again and I can't afford to do that anytime soon. I've also considered architecture as a sort of broad home base, but even that I don't know...

Marketing is really fascinating stuff, it reveals so much about us as humans. Part of me thinks problems of consumption (in which marketing plays such a big part) needs to be fought with equally cunning marketing. But is that really educating people, or just manipulating them? I guess it could do either... but the idea of starting a sustainable development and consumption "trend" makes me think about similar (albeit likely more rudimentary) goings-on during the oil-troubled 70s. They all wound up fizzling out like any other trend...

Perhaps the fact that our society's materialism has become so much more exaggerated and conspicuous truely reflects the end of the 20th Century... the dominant theme of that period being "modernism" and its demands of constant and exponential "progress..." the newer the better as it goes... to the point (I believe) that our lives are so detached from the very fundamental (material and social) aspects of human existence... food, water, shelter, community... things that used to occupy every moment of a persons life don't even register on the radar as we all just eat fast food, drink diet coke, and watch TV (or chat online )... Essentially, we're bored! Only a hundred years ago (and for thousands of years prior to that) we kept busy with matters of survival, and now that those are out of our hands, we don't know what to do with ourselves... SO we continuously imagine new products and things that are required for "the good life" (and therefore survival), and we go out and acquire them.

I suppose thats a rather dramatic generalisation, but I guess in one way or another it makes sense in my head, lol...
The real problem is that the technology has progressed far beyond the people themselves. Technology was supposed to emancipate us from the daily drudgery so we have time for self-development. But oops, the vast majority of the population still just want to sleep, eat, f**k, and exploit the fellow man.

And Paul, I think it's time you redefined your idea of materialism. Look it up in a dictionary or something. Just because you buy material things in excess of what you NEED, doesn't make you materialistic. And what is this "don't deserve to live in comfort"? Everybody deserves to live in comfort.

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12-06-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faust
And Paul, I think it's time you redefined your idea of materialism. Look it up in a dictionary or something. Just because you buy material things in excess of what you NEED, doesn't make you materialistic. And what is this "don't deserve to live in comfort"? Everybody deserves to live in comfort.
I meant that we don't deserve a better life than the other 80% of people on the planet who live in abject poverty. Its a fact that those of us in richer countries consume far more than we need, and far more than our 'fair share'. The richest 20% of the world accounts for over 80% of total consuption.

We take up more than our fair share of fish, meal, total energy, electricity, paper, use around 85% of the worlds cars, on 1995 figures. If the world is suffering, as it clearly is, from shortages of many of these resources, or pollution problems caused by them, without the other 80% of the world even consuming their share, then we must be being materialistic. I don't blame people for wanting more than they need, as I said, I think it is just part of human nature to be materialistic. Its always going to cause us problems.

As Gandhi said: "The world can provide for the needs of everyone, but not for their greed."


Last edited by Paullw; 12-06-2005 at 10:47 AM.
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12-06-2005
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nice quote from gandhi

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12-06-2005
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i dont agree that being materialistic is human nature..
see human nature is been monitored by too many social and economic forces so lets not take things for granded.. human history runs deeper than the industrial revolution /colonialism era, we need to keep in mind that its more in human nature than what seems 'natural' to us today

on the other hand, i want to thank paullw for the facts on consumption in western style societies versus the rest of the world.. its a shame and it is unfair.

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