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15-06-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travolta
well i'm curious what are you doing?? i'm not nearly as informed as you are. please enlighten us.
good job dodging .

i can tell you what i'm doing. i'm not playing a revolutionary. i am not pointing fingers and beating my chest in indignation while not doing anything about changing it.

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15-06-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faust
good job dodging .

i can tell you what i'm doing. i'm not playing a revolutionary. i am not pointing fingers and beating my chest in indignation while not doing anything about changing it.
wow, faust, why so aggressive?

i step away from my post for a few days and look what happens!

seriously, though - is the world falling apart because you buy nice clothes? no.

but do our individual choices as consumers make a difference? of course they do. if a corporation can't sell it, they won't make it.

i am resisting the urge to talk about what i do to try to live up to my ideals, not because i am not doing anything, but because the way the question was asked seems so....impolite. aggressive, like i said. although i don't feel like i have anything particular to hide, i don't like feeling like i have something to *prove* either.

tell you what faust - ask me nicely, and i'll answer the question.


Last edited by meme527; 15-06-2005 at 04:41 PM.
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15-06-2005
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kit
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Don't you think we ALL feel somewhat guilty for the comfort of our lives , when there is so much in the world that unsettles our RELATIVE complacency .

We can only strive to live ethically , and if that means that from time to time one indulges oneself with a an Evisu cotton beanie hat or a Carpe Diem sweater , then so be it . They've not been made in sweatshops , unless , of course , that is part of the artisanal process .

I had to PM lena this afternoon and promise to lighten up .
Should we all make efforts in that direction ?

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15-06-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kit
They've not been made in sweatshops , unless , of course , that is part of the artisanal process .

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15-06-2005
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Yes, yes, yes faust! Exactly what I said about beauty and multi-millionairs! I totally agree to everything you said in your long post above.
It's kind of like a problem in the Dutch educational system what has been put down in words on this page. The teachers talk about how to teach so much, that there's less and less teaching going on. Here we talk about what to do and who to blaim, but we are doing nothing to support either of these two issues. Not saying that it's a bad thing that we're discussing this. Hell no! I've learned a lot on how people stand in this global problem and I think it is a fascinating topic to think about and act to.

But to get back on the actual discussion. Just to keep it a bit fashiony, there's a Dutch expression that goes 'kleren maken de man' clothes make the man. Right now I am seeing it as following: Clothes make the man, man makes money, money makes the West, West destroys the rest, Bin Laden flies into WTC towers. This whole society is as disfunctional as my 1998 computer. The West has and is kind of digging it's own grave. America is taking a lot of scientists from China these days, because the US citizens aren't gifted enough to renew science or just lazy enough to do so. If this goes on (it's happening in my country too, so I read) the roles will turn and in a 100 years, this whole debate we are having is going the other way round. All hypothatically of course...but I thought it was an interesting connection I was making....

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15-06-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faust
good job dodging .

i can tell you what i'm doing. i'm not playing a revolutionary. i am not pointing fingers and beating my chest in indignation while not doing anything about changing it.
why was i expecting this response? and i don't know what that means i'm sorry. i probably am not doing very much like most of us. i am still learning about things, that is positive. it was an honest question i posed to you, and you also evaded it. but yes, i was ticked off by your attitude. both paulw and i, for instance, are obviously learning and the most constructive thing to do is not to jump down people's throats if you feel you are more informed than them, no?

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Last edited by travolta; 15-06-2005 at 05:48 PM.
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15-06-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meme527
wow, faust, why so aggressive?
why? because i am sick of all these pseudo-revolutionaries in their Che Guevarra t-shirts, safe under their mommy-daddy wings, who can yell all they want because it's fashionable. because i'm tired of all these williamsburg "bohemians" trying to look oh-so-poor in their $200 Rogan jeans. because i'm tired of all this fake BS of these little kids that are just utterly bored and want to play rebels. they know it's just a game on the way to prosperity. they have perverted the last bit of purity that rebellion has ever stood for and made a cut thing to do, along with a big industry to cater to them.

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15-06-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faust
why? because i am sick of all these pseudo-revolutionaries in their Che Guevarra t-shirts, safe under their mommy-daddy wings, who can yell all they want because it's fashionable. because i'm tired of all these williamsburg "bohemians" trying to look oh-so-poor in their $200 Rogan jeans. because i'm tired of all this fake BS of these little kids that are just utterly bored and want to play rebels. they know it's just a game on the way to prosperity. they have perverted the last bit of purity that rebellion has ever stood for and made a cut thing to do, along with a big industry to cater to them.
well, i guess this is a safe enough place to vent your anger. i suppose you must just be asking for a sympathetic ear?

but i know i don't fit into the category of people you are so angry about, so until you have something constructive to say, i'll just assume your diatribe is meant as a kind of general, helpless lament against the state of things.....

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15-06-2005
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i think it's presumptious to assume i am one of those who you speak about. my 'liberal' friends are hardly living it up in williamsburg! far from it! i agree, it is fine to vent, just don't take it out on me, please.

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Last edited by travolta; 15-06-2005 at 07:24 PM.
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15-06-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faust
why? because i am sick of all these pseudo-revolutionaries in their Che Guevarra t-shirts, safe under their mommy-daddy wings, who can yell all they want because it's fashionable. because i'm tired of all these williamsburg "bohemians" trying to look oh-so-poor in their $200 Rogan jeans. because i'm tired of all this fake BS of these little kids that are just utterly bored and want to play rebels. they know it's just a game on the way to prosperity. they have perverted the last bit of purity that rebellion has ever stood for and made a cut thing to do, along with a big industry to cater to them.
Faust

I can see where you're coming from , and in my own somewhat pathetic way , I feel the same .

Please DON'T think that I am being patronising when I say that your background has formed you and given you a healthy respect for a totally honest approach to your life . You live in a country that you have chosen , and I feel that despite its shortcomings , you value the freedom that being a citizen of the USA gives you .
What I think you detect in others as being bogus or a covenient ' political pose ' is actually , in many cases , a young person reaching for an ethical way of life , but is far too attracted to the trappings of rebellion and protest , to the extent that they cannot see the wood for the trees .
In my rather cynical post this afternoon I voiced my own disgust at the political spin on debt relief that European politicians have seized upon to divert attention from the European Constitution ballsup that's been waiting to fall onto us for some time .
I am utterly sick of the great unwashed ' Sir Bob Geldof ' jumping on the bandwagon , along with all the other has-beens , like Midge Ure , who glimpse the chance of another 10 minutes of fame . Where are the African artists in this age-defining event ? ( i suppose we could even venture the phrase , which I have patented by the way , as ' this zeitgeist defining event ' . Some are now included in subsequent concerts as an afterthought , while ebay sells tickets for the concerts at grossly inflated prices to line the pockets of the wideboys , to whom Africans are barely civilised ' natives ' to be exploited for as much profit as can be squeezed out of the cynically acquired ' premium ' tickets .
Bliar and Geldof deserve each other , but the poor in Africa deserve so much more , which will not be forthcoming when all is added up and the political spinmerchants have moved on to the next big thing , such as another high-level project to wipe out AIDS in Asia , which is now becoming the workshop of the world . Or Bush and the neocons will decide that a war in Iran/ North Vietnam / or any other chosen member of the axis of evil will be a suitable diversion to direct attention away from the disappearance of people's savings and pensions into the vast maw that is Wall Street , The City in London , or the bourse in Frankfurt .

I am actually very surprised that this thread has yielded so much serious thought , when I expected a rather superficial catalogue of breastbeating that merely allows the contributors to define their own defination of their ' conscience ' and then move on to the latest news from WWD with their guilt salved and the next trip to that luxury boutique amply justified by their crocodile tears .

From my ' vast ' experience of the young , it's the process that youth goes through in order to form their own true opinions , a rite of passage , so to speak , and although most will fall by the wayside and adopt the ' conservative ' life of the middle-class ' burbs ' , more than just a few will keep the fire of a realistic truth burning , and will even meet up with like-minded people when they venture out of the consumer cacoon that is SO easy to accept as the only way to eat , bring up a family and derive SOMETHING to justify their existance in this vale of sorrow .

I began as a left-wing socialist , visited Russia , Latvia , Estonia and East Germany in the days of the 70s , after perastroika . I was appalled by the blatent privilege enjoyed by the chosen party members , my phone was tapped for 6 months after my return to the UK to establish whether I was a danger to the capitalist system of the West , and I consequently emerged as a rather less idealistic left-winger , but a much more canny socialist than I had been before the political scales fell from my eyes after my second visit to Russia and the Baltic states at the end of the 70s .

Incidentally the love of designer clothes is common to all - as I was followed everywhere in Moscow , Riga , Tallinn , and St. Petersburg by young gentlemen offering to buy my YSL Safari suit and my up-to-the-minute New-Man French sportswear . I felt so guilty to the extent that I could take such items for granted , whereas those youngsters had probably poured over Western magazines , wanting against hope that one day such sartorial richesse would come their way .

You're very intense at the moment , and I myself am so , though I think for much different reasons .
Let's lighten up and live and let live . Elitny Muscovites are draped in Versace , YSL , Armani and all the labels they could wish for . Let's hope that Reagon's economic trickle-down effect will happen ( I can hear your hollow laugh from here and it's the absolute still of the night ) and that the comforting effects of some luxury in everyones' lives will allow a legitimate and honest reaching out from the the second world to the third world that will actually happen .

It's actually ' cut the crap time ' for us ALL if we did but know it .

Please excuse my presumption , Faust , if I've taken liberties , I'm just reaching out to a fellow believer who hopes to reach the final goal by a slightly different route .

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15-06-2005
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spoken like a true sage that you are, kit . i'm glad that you were able to shed your left-wing fascination, as many of those who visited the socialist countries and saw their reality have, without losing your sense of socialist and humanitarian face. it's a fine and a right balance to strike.

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16-06-2005
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whats the problem faust?
can we PLEASE keep it civil here?
this is no angst column or your own back yard

please try to stay on topic and post in respect of tFS forums

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16-06-2005
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What's the problem, Lena? Read the post below, that's where the problem started. If that was not a totally unfounded, yet a personal attack on me, I don't know what is. And don't tell me that it was just a coincidence, or that I am overreacting. This boy obviously think that buying expensive clothes = materialism, and he is singling me out (because I don't know another person on tFS besides Alex that champions both Ann and CCP, yet knows the line between beauty and materialism).

No, this isn't my own back yard. This is a public forum, on which I am allowed to express my opinion. Just because I choose to challenge people in the open, unlike the hinting post below, doesn't make me any ruder then them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paullw
Materialism and consumerism runs through all parts of society. We now even have cosumerism where people pretend that they aren't materialistic, because they are anti-label or whatever. Someone here buying Ann Dem or CCP is just as bad as those people mocked in the Nouveau Riche thread for buying LV monograms in crazy colours. The friends of either of these people will approve and compliment them. The buyers will feel good, in both the compliments, and that they like the way they dress.

There's even some argument (I'm not saying its a good one though...) that if someone buys a fake LV its better than buying CCP. At least they aren't putting such a huge amount of money into something so materialistic, and generally the vendor is going to be a poor market salesman, and its going to be made in a poorer Asian economy (where the people, do actually welcome even sweatshop labour, its better than nothing after all!), so it benefits the poor. Whereas buying the CCP/Ann Dem benefits a big department store thats already hugely rich, and the rest of the money goes to some Belgian who's poofing around all day making up new words to describe just how pretentious he is.

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17-06-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faust
What's the problem, Lena? Read the post below, that's where the problem started. If that was not a totally unfounded, yet a personal attack on me, I don't know what is. And don't tell me that it was just a coincidence, or that I am overreacting. This boy obviously think that buying expensive clothes = materialism, and he is singling me out (because I don't know another person on tFS besides Alex that champions both Ann and CCP, yet knows the line between beauty and materialism).

No, this isn't my own back yard. This is a public forum, on which I am allowed to express my opinion. Just because I choose to challenge people in the open, unlike the hinting post below, doesn't make me any ruder then them.
Firstly that wasn't aimed at you, there are other people on this forum who champion those brands. They were also the first that came to mind in terms of the whole 'arte povera' movement. However the anti-label trend can also be attributed to hundreds of other people and brands, take the whole Boho/Bobo chic trends and the 'hipsters'.

Secondly its only an attack on anyone if you perceive that its bad to be equal to other humans. I was only saying that people who buy clothes for beauty, do so because they get pleasure from beauty. People who buy clothes because other people have them, get pleasure from being popular, and fitting in. However, I'm sorry if you felt it was aimed at you.

As for people needing to do something about poverty, this is an academic discussion about whether society is materialistic, people are putting forward their opinions. I grew up in Africa, so its something I feel strongly about.

As for what I do to help: I volunteer in Oxfam at weekends, I'm also a charity rep at school, and I have helped to set up a sponsored walk, raising £9000. We have also organised for our school to be twinned with one in Uganda, so we have had collections for them to help them build new classrooms. I have also convinced the school to ship over our old equipment, so they now have textbooks, blackboards, and 30 computers, as well as the facilities to use them. I have also cycled 200 miles round Holland, raising £1000 and next year I am going to Africa to help with engineering projects to provide clean water to rural villages.

Now am I allowed an opinion?

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17-06-2005
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OFF TOPIC: my dear faust, everyone is allowed to their opinion but venting for venting's sake is not very constructive... try to find other ways to take out/express your anger, we are trying to make a discussion here, this is no angst corner ok?

Quote:
Originally Posted by faust
(because I don't know another person on tFS besides Alex that champions both Ann and CCP, yet knows the line between beauty and materialism).
i think you are exaggerating here, check the Ann and CCP threads to make sure that you are not the only person 'championing' those designers, i'm sure the poster wasnt even aware of your 'personal taste' so please be more reasonable and dont jump on conclusions next time...

lets go on with the discussion in a more civilised manner,
we have nothing to argue for, we are JUST exchanging views here and this must be done in the most civil way...
appreciated

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