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21-08-2005
  286
flaunt the imperfection..
 
softgrey's Avatar
 
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ditto...hurrah frugalsquirrel...
we don't agree on everything..but i respect your very thoughtful post...

hope you stick around...

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22-08-2005
  287
windowshopping
 
keys's Avatar
 
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But are human needs and wants not the backbone of progress?

However, I believe things go wrong when we, as a society, lose focus of our real needs: the elimination of poverty, cure for disease, etc. Sometimes people just need a dose of reality.

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23-08-2005
  288
V.I.P.
 
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This is so true for me too... It seems that clothes/shoes/bags fill in what I'm lacking socially, like if nothing else will make me happy, clothes will.

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30-08-2005
  289
backstage pass
 
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Absolutely, we live in a very materialistic world. Today's society revolves around the almighty dollar. Instead of helping others, we are revolving around how much we can save and it's all gimme, gimme, gimme. We are choosing quantity over quality. Our economy will shut down real soon if people don't stop worshipping the "money gods". They should really start focusing on what's really important.
As for clothing (and I'm sure that is what this thread was really meant for) yeah, it's awesome to look good and feel your best, but people need to realize that they are no better than the next guy/gal. We are all human beings and all put one pant leg on at a time.

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30-08-2005
  290
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Yasmin's Avatar
 
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From a fashion-newbie's viewpoint, I'm not here to learn how to be creative, I've always been creative. I'm learning how to dress for other women, I'm doing this to get along with them.

It's nice when you can combine the two, but when I just use my unadulterated creativity, I'm quite certain it results in so many people seeing it as "fashion victim", people who I would like to get along with, who I wouldn't like judging me negatively before we've even met. And sadly, this is not the rare snob in the crowd, this is most people.

A person doesn't have to be evil or shallow to make assumptions based on what someone or something looks like, our brains are wired to do it as a way "save time and effort". We try to fight it when we realize it, but most of this happens automatically and subconsciously.

Interestingly the first thing we look for when we recognize that a something is a human being, is whether it is female or male (and as soon as we recognize which one, we already automatically have a whole bunch of subconscious ideas about that person!)

As for materialistic society? The stores and designers are looking to make a buck and they've learned how to exploit this problem (just like anyone else looking to make a buck!) They make it harder and harder to dress "well". They also can't be blamed much though, because this is what it takes to succeed in the business world. And when they can, they (like the customers) throw in all the creativity they can.

Fashion is mostly business, but part art too There is a place for it in a healthy, happy person's life, but you know yourself when it's getting out of control!!


Last edited by Yasmin; 30-08-2005 at 11:45 PM.
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30-08-2005
  291
Power to the 99%
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasmin
From a fashion-newbie's viewpoint, I'm not here to learn how to be creative, I've always been creative. I'm learning how to dress for other women, I'm doing this to get along with them.
Maybe those women aren't worth getting along with? I've definitely had friends who couldn't give a rat's *** about fashion, and that was not a problem for me. Maybe I would occasionally tease them about being color blind, or having a rule against carrying a bag not made of ripstop nylon, but that's the extent of it. If you're going to change your look, I think you should have a better reason than that

Some great stuff on this thread, I've enjoyed what I've read.

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30-08-2005
  292
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Yasmin's Avatar
 
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Actually I edited my post a bit to clarify before I saw your reply, hope the idea makes sense now (I am not talking about a narrow group of people, I'm talking all of us)

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31-08-2005
  293
etre soi-meme
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasmin
There is a place for it in a healthy, happy person's life, but you know yourself when it's getting out of control!!
some people, never notice when getting out of control Yasmin ...fashion can be addictive because it satisfies a social/emotional need

i agree with fashionista-ta on not 'worth it' to dress for 'others' but i also understand your own point.
dress is a comunication code, it instantly transmits social/esthetic background

consumerism though is a different ship all together, hasnt much to do with style or esthetics, see one can be an addictive consumer of trash clothes or of luxe labels, the situation is the same, nothing to do with how much you spend, its the NEED to spend in order to feel you exist ..

btw, welcome to tFS yasmin, keep that creativity going

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31-08-2005
  294
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Ok, I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and say "Please don't automatically boycott the sweatshops." It's true, some poor Asian girls are pawning their souls at a sewing machine for a pittance while Big Brand rakes in the profits, but that's better for them than prowling the STD-infested streets and selling themselves. They need to get themselves out of poverty, one step at a time, maybe even one generation at a time. and be assured that with an emerging middle class, education and better access to knowledge, legal rights will follow.

Materialism and greed will be with us, it's simply human nature. I don't like it, I'm merely acknowledging this unsavoury reality. Instead of boycotting, better still to support organisations that attempt to channel our materialism to some good, eg. buy FairTrade coffee, buy from treehugger.com, donate your designer castoffs to Oxfam.

I think it's a good idea to talk about it, to make your feelings or even guilt known even if it won't change the world. Simply having a conscience is a good start, doing something about it is even better. Awareness even without action is better than plain jaded Apathy anytime.

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31-08-2005
  295
Unveil Yourself....
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zazie
Ok, I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and say "Please don't automatically boycott the sweatshops." It's true, some poor Asian girls are pawning their souls at a sewing machine for a pittance while Big Brand rakes in the profits, but that's better for them than prowling the STD-infested streets and selling themselves. They need to get themselves out of poverty, one step at a time, maybe even one generation at a time. and be assured that with an emerging middle class, education and better access to knowledge, legal rights will follow.
How coincidental that I just read an article on that today! It is indeed true. It was about some carpet company fabricating in Pakistan. But because of some rumours about child labor in the production, the company decided to break with the Pakistanian factory's because it could not guarantee child labor-less products. Now, the majority of those kids are prostitutes and bound to live on the streets.

It's just a doublesided discussion as to wether how far we want to stretch our ethics and morals into providing what is good for all parties. Without materialism, or ,perhaps a bigger issue here, kapitalism we would not have to have this conflict. We need to meet somewhere in the middle. Yet, Western society does not want to give in and give up their materialistic feelings to do so. Which means, once more, that the Western society is happy and the rest not.

The Western society, though, is facing more or less a same conflict with the world's oil. The prices are increasing to staggering ammounts and finally the Western society is starting to pull on the shortest end of something.

PS: Happy to see this discussion still going!

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31-08-2005
  296
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I agree with you. I hear that in many cases, a lot of little kids go blind in India and Pakistan weaving carpets to scrunge out a living, and the foreign importer would have ensured that his factory would avoid that extreme exploitation, even though yes, it would have meant using child labour. It's a horrible fact, but these child workers probably are the breadwinners of their families, and they need to bring in money to support their ailing parents or younger siblings. It's either back-breaking work or starving, begging and prostituting in the streets. I went to India recently, and I don't care that it is notionally a democracy - it's impossible to watch whole swarths of withering people, including many little kids and babies, living right next to the dusty roads with nothing but a battered pot and plastic sheets to shield them from 44C heat, while Mercedeses and Lexus zoomed by. I'm sure many simply died away everyday. A skinny little boy no older than 4 ripped off his shirt to wipe the windows of the car I was in, with an expression of pain on his face I still can't get out of my head. I've been to China and seen extreme poverty, I thought it'd be only slightly worse, but I was really shocked. I can't even imagine having the stomach to face Africa, with its millions starving to death.

I think if it took sweatshops to get the Chinese out of this, so be it. I can't expect the rich in the world to suddenly develop a conscience and start spending $billions to invest in the 3rd world (from which they would undoubtedly reap very good returns) instead of blowing it all on weapons, wars and creating more misery, it just won't happen. So, if they will invest in sweatshops out of pure selfish greed, that's fine, as long as that helps alleviate this extreme, inhumane poverty they turn a blind eye to, anyways.

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31-08-2005
  297
fashion insider
 
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You know, I was thinking, why aren't there FairTrade (for coffee growers) type fashion/clothing companies that invest in 3rd world labour without the extreme exploitation, though wages are low, and even feature the stories of their workers on each garment? I'm sure that would sell! :p

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31-08-2005
  298
V.I.P.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zazie
You know, I was thinking, why aren't there FairTrade (for coffee growers) type fashion/clothing companies that invest in 3rd world labour without the extreme exploitation, though wages are low, and even feature the stories of their workers on each garment? I'm sure that would sell! :p
Well, Bono is trying to do that with Edun.

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31-08-2005
  299
fashion insider
 
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I know Bono is cheesy, but I'd give him credit for that. Are the clothes any good?

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31-08-2005
  300
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Wasn't that what Maharishi did/does with their manufacturing? Took it to poorer countries but paid them a western rate? Don't know too much about it...

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