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06-09-2005
  76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faust
You obviously have never seen a Comme des Garcons piece in your life . The whole point is that the garment only LOOKS deconstructed. It wasn't about showing half made clothes, it was about giving prim-and-proper borgouis Paris the boot with a different aesthetic at the time.
You can assume any level of ignorance you like--I love being underestimated

This is my point. I accept that designers have made some great artistic statements using deconstruction. What I'm questioning is whether, now that we are seeing the full impact, it can really be called an innovation in a positive sense. At least 3 of the "magnificent 7" are using this technique, and many many low-end manufacturers are showing fraying and exposed seams. In the case of even some big name designers, fraying is being slapped onto garments, apparently as an afterthought. Overall the impact IMO (and I own garments both "high" and "low" that demonstrate this, unfortunately) has been to decrease clothes' overall quality and longevity--surely not what we need.

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06-09-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helena
I guess the whole L'art peuvre movement IS what is innovative in fashion today. A movement away from machines & high tech and uniform precision. Instead there is a huge human input and the use of natural fibres and traditional techniques. Carpe diem, Carol Christian Poell, Project Alamaba, Paul Harnden and (to a lesser extent) Haute are all examples.
While I'm a big fan of this movement, let me quibble about semantics for a moment...

It's progressive, but not what I would call innovative. It's essentially a return to pre-industrial methods, which goes decidedly against the mainstream of modern fashion production, but isn't actually new.

I think Poell et al are doing brilliant work. But it's like sailing out to explore the world with an unfinished map. In one corner of the map is a mysterious little island that hasn't been visited in 3 generations, but the coastline is carefully charted and the old port is clearly marked, while in another corner lies a completely unexplored area emblazoned only with the ominous fiction "Here Be Dragons".

It's exciting to explore either one, but only one of them carries the added potential of making a new discovery.

Yarrrrrr!

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06-09-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fashionista-ta
You can assume any level of ignorance you like--I love being underestimated


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06-09-2005
  79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Baron
While I'm a big fan of this movement, let me quibble about semantics for a moment...

It's progressive, but not what I would call innovative. It's essentially a return to pre-industrial methods, which goes decidedly against the mainstream of modern fashion production, but isn't actually new.

I think Poell et al are doing brilliant work. But it's like sailing out to explore the world with an unfinished map. In one corner of the map is a mysterious little island that hasn't been visited in 3 generations, but the coastline is carefully charted and the old port is clearly marked, while in another corner lies a completely unexplored area emblazoned only with the ominous fiction "Here Be Dragons".

It's exciting to explore either one, but only one of them carries the added potential of making a new discovery.

Yarrrrrr!
Wouldn't you say, though, that what Project Alabama did in terms of fabric sourcing (recycling used Ts from thrift stores), labor (rural Southern women who'd never come within 100 miles of high fashion), visible handwork (knots out, etc.), and the redefinition of value-add, was innovative?

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06-09-2005
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personally i dont find P.A. innovative at all... thats on the design level..
as a stylistic approach, yes, it can certainly bve considered fresh but innovative is not

the arte povera style is basically a reaction to the over industralisation of today, it can be a fountain for new ideas, but imho, having raw hems hanging down there is pretty mainstream (not to say banal) and not so hard to achieve/concieve

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06-09-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travolta
^ if i'm not mistaken, there are places like in scandinavia have certain laws about the sustainability of products. the states has not adopted any such policy... if it does that will be the determining factor. i don't think it's too far down the road for that to happen...
just to clarify, i meant a law that would affect the fashion industry as a whole, not just one particular country.

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06-09-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travolta
just to clarify, i meant a law that would affect the fashion industry as a whole, not just one particular country.
To tell you the truth, I think it will be the EU that will move the entire world forward. I thought their stopping the GE-Honeywell merger was an absolutely watershed moment in terms of the EU setting course for multi-nationals, and I expect more of the same in the future. My country appears to be rather (OK, almost completely) backward in this area ... Bush and his ilk are actively anti-sustainability as far as I can tell. Consumerism/Wal-martification/burning through maximum amounts of fossil fuels/stomping thru wildlife refuge/McMansion building seems to be a second religion for them ... "Testosterone surging, must leave my mark" ...

I was disturbed to see the EU cave recently to Bush on GMOs. You guys in Europe need to hold the EU's feet to the fire, it's the only way

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07-09-2005
  83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lena
personally i dont find P.A. innovative at all... thats on the design level..
as a stylistic approach, yes, it can certainly bve considered fresh but innovative is not

the arte povera style is basically a reaction to the over industralisation of today, it can be a fountain for new ideas, but imho, having raw hems hanging down there is pretty mainstream (not to say banal) and not so hard to achieve/concieve
Yeah,I agree about Alabama. Really,it's just pretty handworking on pretty grotesque t'shirt shapes etc. Design is not exactly a part of their aesthetic,to be honest.

However,I do think there have been radicals that have done this quite innovatively. Initially,it was Susan Cianciolo with all her ragamuffin quirks...but she also did all this in addition to creating interesting shapes. Same can be said about Jurgi with his contradicting high-quality sophisticate VS. simple, handmade and childlike meshing. Definitely two that stand out with regards to this look,really.


Last edited by Scott; 07-09-2005 at 01:19 AM.
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07-09-2005
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yes i agree scott, but this is not design innovation
this is just a technique and its not too innovative either..

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07-09-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
Yeah,I agree about Alabama. Really,it's just pretty handworking on pretty grotesque t'shirt shapes etc. Design is not exactly a part of their aesthetic,to be honest.

However,I do think there have been radicals that have done this quite innovatively. Initially,it was Susan Cianciolo with all her ragamuffin quirks...but she also did all this in addition to creating interesting shapes. Same can be said about Jurgi with his contradicting high-quality sophisticate VS. simple, handmade and childlike meshing. Definitely two that stand out with regards to this look,really.
My point was more that Project Alabama had innovated wrt the fashion business model ... are we discussing only design innovation ... or all types of innovation?

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07-09-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travolta
^ if i'm not mistaken, there are places like in scandinavia have certain laws about the sustainability of products. the states has not adopted any such policy... if it does that will be the determining factor. i don't think it's too far down the road for that to happen...
Yes, I beleive in Sweden all durable goods come with a mandatory 2year warranty required by the govt. And no, this will never happen in the US, where the consumer economy thrives on selling cheap disposable sh*t and where low price is a primary requirement (witness the success of Walmart, Costco, etc...)

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07-09-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fashionista-ta
Wouldn't you say, though, that what Project Alabama did in terms of fabric sourcing (recycling used Ts from thrift stores), labor (rural Southern women who'd never come within 100 miles of high fashion), visible handwork (knots out, etc.), and the redefinition of value-add, was innovative?
I guess I'm just taking a narrower view of the concept of innovation than you are. I do think that Project Alabama in particular is a spectacular display of problem-solving. It's one of the most compelling responses to a lot of the issues I raised over in the "fashion problems" thread: sustainability, ethical labor, and local relevance. But a lot of what they do has been done before (albeit often with more pretense and less soul) by the likes of Imitation of Christ.

But in the end, maybe it's the soul that matters. Enough so that I'm willing to make my definition of innovation fuzzy around the edges and stick "arte povera" in the gray area.

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07-09-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faust
Yes, I beleive in Sweden all durable goods come with a mandatory 2year warranty required by the govt. And no, this will never happen in the US, where the consumer economy thrives on selling cheap disposable sh*t and where low price is a primary requirement (witness the success of Walmart, Costco, etc...)
mhmm. don't be so sure. i don't think any place, even the us, can sustain itself by cutting corners. i think the environmentalistics will have a reason to cry foul and force us to go down a more ethically conscious road. think of it like selt belts in cars, or health care...

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07-09-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travolta
mhmm. don't be so sure. i don't think any place, even the us, can sustain itself by cutting corners. i think the environmentalistics will have a reason to cry foul and force us to go down a more ethically conscious road. think of it like selt belts in cars, or health care...
wishful thinking, but I wish the same

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07-09-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faust
Yes, I beleive in Sweden all durable goods come with a mandatory 2year warranty required by the govt. And no, this will never happen in the US, where the consumer economy thrives on selling cheap disposable sh*t and where low price is a primary requirement (witness the success of Walmart, Costco, etc...)
Here in Sweden you are basically protected against manufacturing defects/problems for two years by law, yes. The problem is that it can be a bit of a struggle to claim your rights, but it sure can be done; more or less easily depending on where you bought the stuff.

And you can always take your failing stuff back to the shop that sold it, regardless of manufacturer and their policies. This could be somewhat of a problem with international internet stores with Swedish branches that sell to Sweden with an RTB warranty. RTB warranties are not acceptable here unless you personally are willing to jump through hoops.

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