[Psylocke]

Taking the discussion from this thread to here.

It seems that the excessive model talk in many areas of tFS is a problem or a nuisance not just for moderators but also for many fellow members so we thought it would be a good idea to hear everyone's input on what can be improved and how. Do we want new rules to be set or is there another way how it can be taken care of?


The problem, in my opinion, is not just the 'empty posts' (i.e. the posts containing nothing but "Natasha!!!!", "Yay!", etc.) but also the increasing amount of biased power posting. Examples for this can be found in most threads in the ETC's of the Modeling World forum. For a while it was almost impossible to have serious discussions about model rankings and certain lingerie fashion shows without 'model stans' power posting in those threads, posting negative opinions about every model they're not fond of and flooding the threads with their worshiping for particular models. Obviously there are no rules prohibiting members to state their opinions on models, model casts, fashion shows, ranking, etc and that's why those posts can't be reported and removed but I think many would agree that it makes those discussions unattractive for people who are interested in the actual topics and not just one model. It's not fun for other members when threads are taken over by a certain group of people and it drains the quality of the discussion culture on tFS drastically, IMO.

I love coming here and reading everyone's opinion on new campaigns, covers, etc. and I must say I oftentimes don't mind scrolling past a few empty posts but since the moderators and the tFS guidelines state that this is not a fan forum I think it's legitimate to discuss how we can take care of this and how the quality of discussions on the boards can be improved again.

[MulletProof]

Thank you for starting this, Psylocke.

We have rules for continual negativity and powerposting but because of the nature of the violation (a certain amount of posts), you have to 'gather' the offenses and that is where things can get tricky- it is a lot of time wasted in one particular.

Also we closed outlets that were open 'model wars' and even though the 'epicenter' was gone, the damage still reached the rest of the forum.

Without getting into all the measures we have taken or our procedures, I'll jump straight to my personal opinion: it all comes down to model teams, the 4-5 members that are fans of x model, the 4-5 that hate the model and consequently, dislike the fans too and if one of the fans starts liking a new model, consider that new model part of the group 'to hate' by the other team.

Now multiply such dynamic by 80, or by the number of active models in the industry .

How do you integrate the so-called stans/haters into the rest of the community?. I noticed that when a new, young member arrives, the first thing many do is to edit their signature and add the 5-8 models they love the most, as if it was a requirement to be a part of the community. And it's such a small thing that eventually identifies you as part of a clique and what provokes others. One step that I would take is to get rid of such division and clique-inviting tactic, limit it to avatars only, that way when you post an opinion on anything, you won't be confronted by the person that 'hates' the model.. you will not be categorised nor be allowed to categorise yourself so to speak. It probably sounds too extreme, I'm basically just brainstorming here so don't take anything seriously.

Another thing that is also generates that 'sense of home' inside a thread and that segregates others while making others feel part of a special club is the frequency in which a member posts in a thread, some do it to maintain it and keep it updated and others just to say thanks!/amazing!.. in that regard, I have no suggestions , I find it incredibly hard just thinking on how to make places more inclusive.. you certainly cannot obligate people to come to a thread or to stay out of it. One day I thought of the possibility of "formally inviting" members to engage in the rest of the community (I probably thought this when visiting the Weight Thread and seeing members take pride on their 0 posts because the only thread they had ever posted in was the Weight Thread- where posts didn't count). By formally, yes, I mean as a yellow square/reminder in their profile and by inviting I mean literally a "why don't you come and join us!" invitation . But perhaps we could do it informally. Or perhaps there could be like an activity.. some kind of game that would get some members out of their favorite threads and into the boards, don't ask me how, I'm thinking something kindergarden here as in "mod for a day" "Magazines member of the day" .

As for what's currently happening in Ad Campaigns, I feel like the answer for that is more aggressive moderation (we actually set up rules against the "OMG NATASHA" comments but they're not regularly applied because you'd basically end up left with one post, and it's a lot of editing, very time-consuming). By applying these rules and shooting reminders, things might ease up they way they did in Designers & Collections. But it's still hard to control. Such type of moderation has worked in D&C and also in FID, although in none of these areas the model has such presence as in a campaign.

Not much else to add for now. I'm more interested on how non-model fanatic members want a solution for this problem.

[Jenna16]

Personally, I think that in recent years TFS has become too rigid with its rules and a lot of members are getting a bit frustrated. And the fact that there is now a thread discussing what people should be allowed to post and not post when discussing a campaign is a perfect example.

I can understand how dozens of "OMG Natasha" posts can be annoying but is it really that big of a deal? However, I don't think that the other side should also not feel limited to what they want to say either in response to the thread, "for example, all this Natasha fanaticism is making me annoyed with her presence in the Prada campaign," or whatever.

Monitoring what people are allowed to post has gone too far and although I do see the reasoning in it, such rules are ultimately a negative force because they limit personal expression and inspiration.

I post on another board that has at least as much traffic as TFS and people can post almost anything they want (except for spam, spoilers, porn and stuff) and people do often flame each other, but overall the atmosphere is so much better. I understand that there needs to be some rules (like how it was in 2006 when I first joined TFS) but it has just gone to far.

Another incident that reminds me of this (although it is not about models): Recently a thread in the "Rumor has it" forum was locked because none of the mods wanted to monitor it any longer. It is a thread I never post in or care to read, however, the incident still really bothered me. That just doesn't seem right to me. Any thread, anywhere, at any time could be closed using that reasoning. And really what is the big deal about it needed to be monitored. If none of the mods want to monitor it, can't they just let it be. The conversation (just like the conversation in the Prada campaign thread) isn't hurting anyone. And if it is contained to a certain thread, I don't see how it is disruptive to the rest of the board.

[visualoptimism]

I think the main thing that I don't like about model talk is that there seems to be a few people who just can't get over the fact that another model has gotten a job over another. They go into another models thread and say "so and so" would have been much better in this campaign and then complain about it in there favourite models thread. I mean to a certain extent these kinds of conversations are interesting but not when the person is clearly just being immature and is chucking a hissy fit like a baby. :-) It would be so much nicer if the conversation was intelligent and not biased upon hating another model, just because.

Of course people can be biased upon models and such and I know a lot of people are on here. But I love it when someone can say, well I really love this model but this isn't there best work...blah blah blah.

That's just my opinion of course and unfortunately I don't think anything the mods would do could change that.

Regarding the comments in the Prada campaign at the moment, it is annoying when someone just comments "yay, goooo poly" or whatever they say. It's much better when they can type an actual sentence and make some good conversation by stating why they like it etc etc.

I haven't been using TFS nearly as long as some of the members on here so I am not sure about previous bannings and thread closings and what not. I think mulletproof has a great idea in making games and things to try and entice people to leave the models threads and start making some new member friends and having a little more fun.

I think the rules here on TFS aren't very strict and very fair. It's just one of those things that need to happen when running a very active forum like this one.

[HeatherAnne]

Thanks Psylocke for bringing this up, I am in complete agreement with all that you've said on the matter.

Maybe an "Ad Campaign Casting" thread should exist in ETCs of Modeling subforum each campaign season similar to the "Runway Casting" thread that exists there [and is a lot of fun and hassle free for mods] every fashion season.

That way the ads could be posted and all the model fans and stans could post their quick quips about ad campaign casting without annoying the members who really want to look at the campaigns from a more fashion/art related perspective.

And as visiualoptimism pointed out, it's fine to post a comment about what the model is bringing to a campaign in the Ad Campaigns subforum as long as they expand on it.

I also think a thread should exist in ETCs for "Ad Campaign Wishlist" before each season, and the news thread should be limited to just NEWS with sources. This was another thread I became quickly annoyed with this season for much of the same reason. [I think a thread like this actually exists somewhere in the Ad Campaigns subforum but it became quickly buried this year, perhaps putting it in a different subforum would make it clearer].

That's not limiting anyone's power of speech -- it's just shifting things around a bit and making everything cleaner and clearer.

I'm sorry people think that moderators are being too strict and that are rules are stifling, but whether you want to admit it or not the rules on tFS keep the integrity of the board (a board even industry insiders use as a resource as there is a TON of information on this board) from becoming just another sloppy fashion fan site without merit.

We do always take it into consideration the needs and feedback from our members, because even though we are mods at the end of the day we are regular members just like all of you and sincerely want what is best for the board.

[candlebougie]

Nice topic. I totally agree with you Psylocke, there are much more overly biased and rude comments in the threads than in previous years.

I think 95% of the members are sane and reasonably objective. Everyone has different taste of course. But there are a handful of fanatic members who continously worship their models and HATE others with passion. It becomes annoying if it happens in every thread.

I have my favourites too, I post in their threads and comment when they get campaigns. But I always try to preserve some objectivity. At the same time there are models I don't like. But I don't post in EVERY THREAD how HORRIBLE this model is, how she RUINS that campaign, and WHY WAS SHE CHOSEN instead of MY FAVOURITE GIRL etc. It's great to post an opinion but often times it crosses the line and becomes biased power posting.

You just know which members are going to hate/love a campaign once a certain model is cast - and they will articulate themselves loudly and with the appropriate smilies.




_

[Psylocke]

Thank you everyone for your inputs It's nice to see that others feel the same way about the current situation and I agree with so much that has been stated.


MulletProof: I agree that the group dynamic of the fan/stan posses could be part of the problem. It's obviously easier to connect with others on tFS when you notice someone else having the same favorite models which could be why many members feel the need to express their love for the same model all over the board and in so many threads. I think many of them aren't aware that tFS does have a forum for social interaction with other members (Heart and Soul) where it's more welcome to post about more random things.
Also, I know that's probably not a possibility, but many forums have a separate chat room where members can chat away in real time, that often helps preventing all the impulse posting. I assume with tFS being so huge that wouldn't work, though.
But I love the idea of encouraging everyone to post more in other sections of the forums! Love the kindergarden methods


Jenna16: Just to make it clear, starting this discussion was my idea and I'm not a moderator. None of the mods have stated that any of this talk shouldn't be allowed. If they wanted to they could just remove all those posts and not even discuss this with us but as you can see they are here to see what we have to say about this and to find a solution that makes the forums more enjoyable for all of us.
I don't really think that the mods are too strict. Every forums I've ever been on that wasn't heavily moderated was just a complete mess (power posting, members bashing, topics taking forever to load because of picture spams/quoting, etc.) and I'm glad tFS isn't like that.


HeatherAnne: I was going to suggest something similar, having a 'Campaign Casting Thread' or even something less serious like a 'Campaign Rant and Rave Thread' (not a good idea, I admit, it would be like a 'stan ghetto' ) or something like that. The campaign wishlist thread is a bit pointless because people would just post "Hilary for every campaign" or "Snejana in any campaign and I'm happy" etc. but that would not lead to any discussion so a general thread for when the campaigns are out might make more sense.

[MulletProof]

^ You're so right, the chat room would be amazing for that. We actually used to have one for years, but one day it stopped working. I wish there was a way to invest on whatever takes to revive it just to make things easier (and fun) for everyone.

[BetteT]

I think a chat room would be probably a good place to funnel all that model talk, the excessive exclamtions and hater talk, etc. and would give those members who love to go on and on about their favorites an outlet for thier enthusiasm. And it just might help keep it out of the threads ... we'd start to direct the biggest fans there.

I'm going to ask management if we have the capability of doing that again or not. If it can be done I'll take it to the moderator team to discuss and see what the consensus is about bringing it back. . Something like that cannot really be moderated ... so it could turn into a real battlefield. So we would have to discuss whether or not it mattered much. It's not permanent (like posts in our threads) and the trouble makers would probably get run off by the other members soon enough. So .... it's a long shot, but I think we should investigate and discuss this possibility.

[michelabella]

Quote:

Originally Posted by visualoptimism I think the main thing that I don't like about model talk is that there seems to be a few people who just can't get over the fact that another model has gotten a job over another. They go into another models thread and say "so and so" would have been much better in this campaign and then complain about it in there favourite models thread.

this.

I like discussion but when almost every single comment is more about the dislike for the said model and less about the actual work itself, it adds nothing to the discussion and begins looking like a flood and makes the thread unbearable for the people who like to read thought out opinions and/or find actual pictures.

[Crying Diamonds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeatherAnne Thanks Psylocke for bringing this up, I am in complete agreement with all that you've said on the matter. Maybe an "Ad Campaign Casting" thread should exist in ETCs of Modeling subforum each campaign season similar to the "Runway Casting" thread that exists there [and is a lot of fun and hassle free for mods] every fashion season. That way the ads could be posted and all the model fans and stans could post their quick quips about ad campaign casting without annoying the members who really want to look at the campaigns from a more fashion/art related perspective. And as visiualoptimism pointed out, it's fine to post a comment about what the model is bringing to a campaign in the Ad Campaigns subforum as long as they expand on it. I also think a thread should exist in ETCs for "Ad Campaign Wishlist" before each season, and the news thread should be limited to just NEWS with sources. This was another thread I became quickly annoyed with this season for much of the same reason. [I think a thread like this actually exists somewhere in the Ad Campaigns subforum but it became quickly buried this year, perhaps putting it in a different subforum would make it clearer]. That's not limiting anyone's power of speech -- it's just shifting things around a bit and making everything cleaner and clearer. I'm sorry people think that moderators are being too strict and that are rules are stifling, but whether you want to admit it or not the rules on tFS keep the integrity of the board (a board even industry insiders use as a resource as there is a TON of information on this board) from becoming just another sloppy fashion fan site without merit. We do always take it into consideration the needs and feedback from our members, because even though we are mods at the end of the day we are regular members just like all of you and sincerely want what is best for the board.

How about completely seperate campaign threads in the model area of the forum: Prada S/S 12 Campaign Casting, or a subsection in the model area exclusively for this use.

[HeatherAnne]

^ I'd honestly rather see all campaign brand castings dicussed in one thread. A bunch of split threads for each brand would be messy and more for moderators to sort through. I think we're opening a door that we don't want to if we allow some brands their own threads and not others.

Here's the runway casting thread that exists each season in ETCs, as I mentioned earlier it functions beautifully:
http://forums.thefashionspot.com/f96...-a-147383.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psylocke The campaign wishlist thread is a bit pointless because people would just post "Hilary for every campaign" or "Snejana in any campaign and I'm happy" etc. but that would not lead to any discussion so a general thread for when the campaigns are out might make more sense.

You're probably right, it's probably not needed if we give them another place to discuss the casting, but then we need to make this thread news ONLY:
http://forums.thefashionspot.com/f79...-a-150893.html
You have to dig through that thread to find any real information. As there's lots of the exact comments you're talking about in that thread.

------------

So, next season in ETCs of Modeling:
F/W 2012 Ad Campaign Casting Discussion

And next season in Ad Campaigns:
F/W 2012 Ad Campaign Casting -- News Only

And of course the news can also be posted in the "free for all" casting dicussion thread in the ETCs.

The chat room is a brilliant idea, but I'm not convinced it will deter people from posting the same kinds of comments. It'd still be great to have though if possible.

[kokobombon]

I love the idea of a chat room, not only because of "stans" posting there (how I love the models stans term btw lol) but also it could bring members together discussing the things that mods ask us to discuss in profile comments/PMs. It´s hard to maintain a discussion of several members going back and forward between each others profiles. It could also be an outlet to post stuff that are not permitted anywhere cause the proper threads in RHI forum are now closed, eg the Blind Items thread.

[loladonna]

I mostly steer clear of the model threads for precisely a lot of the reasons listed here. It is full of groupies who do nothing but talk about how pretty or cute the model is. If you want to just look a pictures of a particular model you have to wade through endless empty posts. The model threads are more like self-contained fanboards. I get the sense that the average age of posters there skews younger than the rest of the board. When I see a signature with a list of model names I assume the poster is a tween because I can't imagine adult posters doing that. The model groupie thing also infiltrates the magazine section where every time a new issue is posted someone whines that they wish a model was on the cover. If there is a model on the cover we get to hear how they wish it was their favorite model and not the model they hate so much. I just feel like the model threads encourage such a childish level of discourse. Maybe if the threads were picture only and discussion could only be a critique of the edits? I honestly don't know what the answer is. You mods have a tough job.

[fashionista-ta]

Model talk doesn't really bother me because I don't visit those threads ... one thing I have noticed over the years, though, is that New Posts is now almost exclusively model threads, whereas it used to be useful and helpful as a sampling of all that was new and interesting on tFS. For me now, it's a waste of time even to look at it, and there's not really anything to take its place for someone who just isn't interested in the Models forum.

In terms of encouraging diversity, I wonder if it would be possible to have some kind of badge (now this is starting to sound like Girl Scouts ) or icon denoting members who have made a contribution across multiple forums. Something that would appear with your username/avatar/etc. in your posts.

Maybe there could be a forum of the week or month with special new threads, discussions, games, etc., to encourage members to try something new.

Since there has been a lot of interest in post count, perhaps a points or tier system that would track desirable behaviors could be effective (posting in core fashion forums, posting in feedback threads that help other members, posting images in designer collection threads, average post more than xxx characters, etc.). Right now we have the titles and blocks that I believe track with the post count. It would be interesting to have something more meaningful.