[Lite_Brite]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkGoddess Male physical attractiveness isn't valued as much as female, period. Acknowledging differences between men and women isn't sexist, and for the same reason it isn't sexist to expect men to possess certain characteristics, like strength.

that's actually the very definition of sexism. but please, continue to accept every regressive attitude that is thrown your way in the name of being true to 'your gender'.

eventually people will stop seeing men and women and terms of these destructive dichotomies.

[Les_Sucettes]

I used to wear high all all the time and everywhere, but now i only wear them in special occasions. They do make your life more difficult, the same way women in the old days had all sort of complicated outfits that really prevented them to do anything than look static and pretty, we have our Killer heels. Yes I felt prettier and more self confident, but is it worth it? A big fat no. My lifestyle and the city i live now is totally anti-heels, you need to be a able to move and fast if you actually want to do something worthwhile. The last thing I want is a pair of heels preventing me from doing the things that my male counterparts do without having to think if some walking is involved.

It actually makes me laugh when bloggers come to cities like London expecting to walk around all pretty and poised in their high heels and then find out that they are unable to walk to the end of the street with them, have to stop everywhere to sit down and are unable to go to anywhere at the end of the day because their feet are destroyed.

I think heels have a place, and no one should forbid a women to wear them to work if she feels like it, but for me they have no place in day to day activities anymore.

[PinkGoddess]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lite_Brite that's actually the very definition of sexism. but please, continue to accept every regressive attitude that is thrown your way in the name of being true to 'your gender'. eventually people will stop seeing men and women and terms of these destructive dichotomies.

These "destructive dichotomies" exist, and have always existed, in virtually every culture known throughout history.

In order for two components to be equal in every aspect, they must be the same, which men and women are not and never will be regardless of how much certain so-called "feminists" try to argue that women are simply men with different reproductive organs. Please. There is nothing "regressive" about holding men to different standards than women and vice-versa if men and women ARE different.

[Lite_Brite]

lots of bad things have existed throughout history but we've been doing a decent job of working through them in modern society. humans don't just come into the world as decent functioning members of society - we're naturally inclined to all sorts of destructive tendencies. racism, sexism, heterosexism, mysticism, war.

maybe 100 years ago we all should have just thrown up our hands and said "**** it, women have always been dominated by men in every culture (which isn't actually true but for the sake of argument I'll go with it), so let's just relinquish power in every sector of society". there is great diversity amongst women, I'd venture to say between me and you, and I don't care to be grouped in with you as if we fall under the same umbrella as human beings with the exact same nature, the same wants and needs etc.

we need to keep fighting for a humanistic view of every individual instead of acting like what is "natural" is always good.

where do you draw the line for when we should give up? how far is the expectation that we wear heels in the office from the expectation that we just stay out of the office altogether? I'm for expanding choice for both men and women in how they live their lives, and I know it's worth pursuing because we've not stopped progressing yet.

[The_Ida]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkGoddess Male physical attractiveness isn't valued as much as female, period. Acknowledging differences between men and women isn't sexist, and for the same reason it isn't sexist to expect men to possess certain characteristics, like strength. This article however, is beyond silly. It attempts to argue that symbols of female sexuality and beauty possess no power in the professional world, therefore they possess no power at all (as though women wear heels for that reason). Just a shallow, perverse attempt at feminism.

I'm with Dego. It's just stupid expecting men to posses some characteristics and women other.

I don't think sexuality (feminine or masculine) has a place in the professional world at all, so I'm with the article. Kind of. If it wasn't so lame and poorly written.

[The_Ida]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkGoddess These "destructive dichotomies" exist, and have always existed, in virtually every culture known throughout history. In order for two components to be equal in every aspect, they must be the same, which men and women are not and never will be regardless of how much certain so-called "feminists" try to argue that women are simply men with different reproductive organs. Please. There is nothing "regressive" about holding men to different standards than women and vice-versa if men and women ARE different.

You could use the same logic regarding racism. It fits perfectly. There have been racism in all cultures, the standard argument being that the other race is different and therefore must me treated differently. There are some genetic differences inbetween races - does that mean that Asians should have other rights than Africans? One could argue that Asians and Africans ARE different...

BTW I don't think there's anything wrong with being a feminist.

[salomelovesjohn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkGoddess These "destructive dichotomies" exist, and have always existed, in virtually every culture known throughout history. In order for two components to be equal in every aspect, they must be the same, which men and women are not and never will be regardless of how much certain so-called "feminists" try to argue that women are simply men with different reproductive organs. Please. There is nothing "regressive" about holding men to different standards than women and vice-versa if men and women ARE different.

I agree.

Lite Brite what you are articulating is a very Western, first generation feminist movement statement. Many other types of feminists have different views of the matter including the views that PinkGoddess stated.

Race is not equal to gender. Its not racist to say that women are different then men, its biological. Its also not necessarily evil or bad or downputting as many seem to think. Women bear children, men don't. In this and other ways I think its more anti-women to not acknowledge those biological truisms by pretending we are the same.

[retailqueen]

^^^ ITA it's actually pretty regressive to deny/reject specific feminine characteristics. these characteristics do not in any way mean we are not better than men.

[Echoes]

:: sigh ::

[CaitlinC]

I'll stick to my high heels.

I can literally run in high heels, so I don't have any problems walking in them.

My feet don't hurt either.

I can wear heels for hours on end.

I wear them because they make me look good, feel good and are my favorite kind of shoe.

[Lite_Brite]

Quote:

Originally Posted by salomelovesjohn I agree. Lite Brite what you are articulating is a very Western, first generation feminist movement statement. Many other types of feminists have different views of the matter including the views that PinkGoddess stated. Race is not equal to gender. Its not racist to say that women are different then men, its biological. Its also not necessarily evil or bad or downputting as many seem to think. Women bear children, men don't. In this and other ways I think its more anti-women to not acknowledge those biological truisms by pretending we are the same.

first generation feminist? did you mean First Wave feminist? that's completely wrong so I hope you'll clarify.

I'm aware that there exists more than one type of feminism although I really do not consider what PinkGoddess said to be one of those types. you're likely referring to cultural feminism? difference feminism maybe?

if you really would like to bust out scientific journals and start accounting for the biological differences between men and women, which obviously exist to a degree that we may or may not agree upon, I'd love to. but I don't think this is the thread.

what we're really talking about here is people (women or men or etc) being forced to behave one way or another. I sport 4 inch heels, it's no problem. I like it and embrace many popular notions of femininity while rejecting others, just as anyone should be free to do.

my main point is that PinkGoddess' summary of femininity/masculinity is incredibly reductive and, frankly, sounds ignorant to my ears. a larger number of people than she accounted for reject the almighty 21st century concepts of who should do what based on sex/gender. not everybody wants to live in this hypersexual hetero normative world where women are reduced to their image and men to their strength. those who do like that are free to do so in their little slice of life, but to take issue when people complain about being forced into little boxes is ridiculous.

I also liked The_Ida's point that the workplace should not be such a sexual environment. human beings certainly take their sexualities with them wherever they go, but that doesn't mean we have to make them the center of every activity.

[sergeantkero]

omg LOL!! i feel sexy when im wearing high heels and high heels makes your legs look very very long haha they look great on our legs. hahaha those shoes are made for confidence booster. hahaha

[PinkGoddess]

Quote:

Originally Posted by retailqueen ^^^ ITA it's actually pretty regressive to deny/reject specific feminine characteristics. these characteristics do not in any way mean we are not better than men.

You just said yourself that there are specific gender-based characteristics. Accepting that involves rejecting the notion that men and women possess equal characteristics.

Women are not inferior to men overall, just different. I never even brought up inferiority (and I don't see how valuing women for their beauty can even be taken that way).

[PinkGoddess]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Ida You could use the same logic regarding racism. It fits perfectly. There have been racism in all cultures, the standard argument being that the other race is different and therefore must me treated differently. There are some genetic differences inbetween races - does that mean that Asians should have other rights than Africans? One could argue that Asians and Africans ARE different... BTW I don't think there's anything wrong with being a feminist.

The differences between the races are purely physical, and the racial discrimination that has existed throughout history has not involved either specific races, or specific attributes assigned to races. When groups are discriminated against, the primary aim is simply to keep them powerless and assign arbitrary negative attributes, which is not at all the aim in a society that assigns women different roles.

There is nothing at all wrong with being a feminist, that is why I referred to particular feminists as "so-called".

[PinkGoddess]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lite_Brite maybe 100 years ago we all should have just thrown up our hands and said "**** it, women have always been dominated by men in every culture (which isn't actually true but for the sake of argument I'll go with it), so let's just relinquish power in every sector of society". there is great diversity amongst women, I'd venture to say between me and you, and I don't care to be grouped in with you as if we fall under the same umbrella as human beings with the exact same nature, the same wants and needs etc. we need to keep fighting for a humanistic view of every individual instead of acting like what is "natural" is always good. where do you draw the line for when we should give up? how far is the expectation that we wear heels in the office from the expectation that we just stay out of the office altogether? I'm for expanding choice for both men and women in how they live their lives, and I know it's worth pursuing because we've not stopped progressing yet.

I consider the notion that those who dominate (i.e. lead) a certain group or society are immediately superior, very untrue and also anti-feminist, considering that men are more adapted for fighting, both physically and psychologically. It is those who believe that females must adapt themselves to be more like men in order to be "empowered" that are implicating inferiority.