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15-10-2009
  76
scenester
 
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Blah, Blah Blah........ Next!

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15-10-2009
  77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dego View Post
And your "proof"/source for this assumption is...?
Centuries of historical, philosophical, and psychological research that cannot possibly be explained in a single post, much less a single book.

I honestly don't believe that you fail to realise these differences on some level. Even without having done research, simply interacting with men and women on a daily basis should have given you a good idea of the basic distinctions between them. It's certainly politically correct in today's society sanitised by propagandists disguised as "feminists" to pretend that women are simply men with breasts, but when it comes to people's expectation, assessment, and treatment of men and women, I would bet anything that people aren't practising what they preach.

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15-10-2009
  78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dego View Post
Oh, you've GOT to be kidding me!

SAYS WHO?!
Humans are instinctively designed to respond to symmetry, proportion, averageness, and youthfulness in physical features, and women possess these qualities both facially and bodily much so more than men. Women's secondary sexual characteristics are also more pronounced, and men who do possess pedomorphic features are considered feminine-looking and less attractive than rugged looking males.

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15-10-2009
  79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
If the event is considered to have a formal dress code, no i wouldn't expect a women to wear sneakers the same way i would not expect a man to wear sneakers, it has nothing to do with stupid expectations society has of me has a woman. It's a dress code that the person that organized the event wants you to comply.
And what is the dress code based on? Expectations of how men and women are "supposed" to dress. Even if such an event had no dress code, we would still respond much more differently to a woman wearing sneakers than one wearing heels; that too is expectation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
You seem to mistake requirements with expectations, your employer may required you in your contract to wear an uniform that may involve a bit of heel, dress in a more formal way etc etc, but he can't come up to you out of blue and say "because your a women I expect you to wear heels and make the coffee for the guys in the boardroom". This idea that women have to do certain things, even if those things have absolutely no biological base, because of their gender is the exact definition of sexism.
Yes that is sexism, but what relevance does that have to gender-based expectations? Expectation and requirement are not mutually inclusive, and previously you said that the former was sexist on its own, without the existence of requirement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
Since when wearing heels is a significant part of being a women? Wearing heels isn't in any shape or form a significant part of being a women. There are women that never wore a pair heels in their lives and are no less women because it. The same way it's not a significant part of being a women staying at home washing the dishes. This are simply sexist social constructions.
Read more carefully; I said wearing heels is an insignificant part of being a woman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
Once again, in history female beauty was not always considered more valuable than male beauty, all of this are cultural constructions that have absolutely nothing to do with the biological differences.
There are exceptions to every rule, but for the most part, a woman's beauty has always been of more value than a man's, and in addition, has always comprised a considerable amount of a woman's worth. The biological roots explaining this are obvious.

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15-10-2009
  80
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Quote:
Women's secondary sexual characteristics are also more pronounced, and men who do possess pedomorphic features are considered feminine-looking and less attractive than rugged looking males.
Although this week, there has been plenty of discussion about new research which suggests that the contraceptive pill could be skewing women's mating preferences away from rugged men in favour of more feminised-looking males.

When ancient instincts and modern chemistry collide, the results might be more interesting than we imagine...

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Last edited by tigerrouge; 15-10-2009 at 08:33 AM.
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15-10-2009
  81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
Once again, in history female beauty was not always considered more valuable than male beauty, all of this are cultural constructions that have absolutely nothing to do with the biological differences.
true but when Male beauty is normally held in higher regard to a female's like in historic Japan. It was because he looked....more like a woman. It is kind of funny that even people like the Vikings found that Balder the passive and beautiful god was the equal to Freya in beauty though Balder was nowhere near as manly as say Odin or Thor (though Loki was counted as attractive as well).


Last edited by Desi; 15-10-2009 at 09:19 AM.
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15-10-2009
  82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PinkGoddess View Post
Even if such an event had no dress code, we would still respond much more differently to a woman wearing sneakers than one wearing heels; that too is expectation.
.
But that's exactly The problem with your logic, just because things happen, doesn't mean they should happen. Or that we have to conform to the status quo. If i was in event with no dress code, i would not respond at all differently to a women wearing high heels or a pair of sneakers. It's quite a common situation.

Do I think women look sexier with high heels? Yes, I do. Do I expect women to wear High heels to fulfill an expectation of what a women's role in society should be? Absolutely NOT.
We live in a world where things are expected of us no one can deny it, but expectations solely by gender are very dangerous and pernicious and that is what you have been defending from post one, and as we evolve as society we are trying to filter what is indeed a social convention, or a biological trait.

You may state, fact after fact of cultural and social constructions, but the mere existence are not some sort of proof they are not sexist.
By reading some of your posts and your reinforcement of the biology as some sort of excuse for things that were created by a sexist society, i was reminded of an XVIII study that i had to analyze at Uni that claimed with all the might of medical Knowledge at the time, full of scientific quotations and measurements , that biology was against women being educated because their hips were weaker than men's and they could not be seated for long periods of time, without damaging them.

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15-10-2009
  83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desi View Post
true but when Male beauty is normally held in higher regard to a female's like in historic Japan. It was because he looked....more like a woman. It is kind of funny that even people like the Vikings found that Balder the passive and beautiful god was the equal to Freya in beauty though Balder was nowhere near as manly as say Odin or Thor (though Loki was counted as attractive as well).
For what I've learned from History I'm convinced, although with no scientific study to back me up so it's only a personal opinion, that the emergence of beauty has something almost exclusively in the realms of the feminine, it's actually quite a recent idea. Male beauty was extremely valuable in certain societies that's a fact, but if we study documents and books of certain periods, the time devoted to the description of male beauty rivals that of women's, and sometimes even surpasses it. Great beauty in men was in certain periods a ticket to greater things. Societies were so much focused on man that even physical beauty something that we commonly associate with women, was something that if a men possessed it seem to shadow even female beauty. Nowdays male physical beauty per se seems not to be taken seriously, it's seen as superficial, weak, soft, unless is backed up by a strong character, it was not always so.

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15-10-2009
  84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
But that's exactly The problem with your logic, just because things happen, doesn't mean they should happen. Or that we have to conform to the status quo. If i was in event with no dress code, i would not respond at all differently to a women wearing high heels or a pair of sneakers. It's quite a common situation.
Perhaps you wouldn't, but a large majority of people would respond this way. I'm merely trying to make the point that gender-based expectations aren't necessarily indicative of sexism.

Women have the unique ability to use their beauty and sex appeal to their advantage; Why should they forgo this merely to make themselves "equal" to men when they are not equal in this regard? Though I generally don't view the differences between men and women as flaws because they all exist for some purpose, obviously certain characteristics have beneficial aspects where others don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
Do I think women look sexier with high heels? Yes, I do. Do I expect women to wear High heels to fulfill an expectation of what a women's role in society should be? Absolutely NOT.
We live in a world where things are expected of us no one can deny it, but expectations solely by gender are very dangerous and pernicious and that is what you have been defending from post one, and as we evolve as society we are trying to filter what is indeed a social convention, or a biological trait.
I have already stated that making judgements based on expectations regarding something as trivial as high heels is pointless. However, gender-based expectations are absolutely necessary; whenever two components are different, treating them as though they are the same has negative repercussions.

Why on Earth would you wish to filter out biological traits that each serve important purposes? Has the desire for political correctness brought people so far as to reject what is natural?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
You may state, fact after fact of cultural and social constructions, but the mere existence are not some sort of proof they are not sexist.
By the definition of gender-based discrimination, Nature itself is sexist. How we perceive sexism in the negative sense is concerned primarily with ethics, not differential treatment. Don't confuse necessary differential treatment, with differential treatment that crosses ethical boundaries and forces women to fulfill their biological roles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
By reading some of your posts and your reinforcement of the biology as some sort of excuse for things that were created by a sexist society
Please lead me to a direct quote where I in any way, tried to excuse sexism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
i was reminded of an XVIII study that i had to analyze at Uni that claimed with all the might of medical Knowledge at the time, full of scientific quotations and measurements , that biology was against women being educated because their hips were weaker than men's and they could not be seated for long periods of time, without damaging them.
If you're trying to use the existence of bogus studies as some sort of evidence that objective research holds no merit, you might as well discredit every field of science altogether.

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15-10-2009
  85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dego View Post
Oh, you've GOT to be kidding me!

SAYS WHO?!
Karma to you!

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15-10-2009
  86
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Uncomfortably high heels are the corsets of today...sure, a tiny waist and hourglass figure have always been deemed attractive, but corsets are outmoded for a good reason. Now that we know that corsets are uncomfortable and unhealthy and that un-nipped women are just as beautiful, we are more likely to be surprised (perhaps even pleasantly, but nonetheless) when we do see them being worn. Of course they have their place here and there, but it's always a 100% conscious choice where the aspects of comfort, culture and style are carefully considered. Nowadays we laugh at the notion that women are "expected" to wear corsets or that an uncorseted woman is morally loose or just less attractive, which was the generally unquestioned view for a very long time.

Isn't it the same with very high heels?

Heels are way too culturally loaded today. Sure, they are often lovely. But I hope the day will come when heels are a special item, a conscious choice and not the norm, much less the expected. It made me literally sick to the stomach to read of the pregnant women tottering on stilettos. It's really sick. Lives are at stake.

And the idea that a woman may not get promoted because she wears flats is ridiculous... Actually quite funny...it's always our own choice to accept and fall victim to such ideas.

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15-10-2009
  87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melisande View Post
It made me literally sick to the stomach to read of the pregnant women tottering on stilettos. It's really sick. Lives are at stake.

And the idea that a woman may not get promoted because she wears flats is ridiculous... Actually quite funny...it's always our own choice to accept and fall victim to such ideas.
I agree with this statement but still don't think that the only reason that women wear heels is because of men that's just ridiculous and sexiest to think that women hold that much stock in such ideas.

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15-10-2009
  88
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^ I've found that women who dress more like men in the workplace can do quite well ... heels are far from a requirement to get promoted anyplace I've ever been.

There seem to be some mistaken views floating around here I would recommend the book Why Him? Why Her? (which btw includes quite a bit of actual science) to anyone who thinks gender and attraction is simple ... right/left, black/white. It is not, and that's true even if you take people attracted to their own gender out of the mix (which of course should not be done if one wants to have any kind of clear picture of the spectrum of expression).

There are many women who are attracted to more 'feminine' characteristics in men (full lips, non-chiseled jaw, etc.) even without the pill.

Women are hardly uniquely capable of using beauty and sex appeal to their advantage; men do it every day, everywhere I've ever been, and there are a boatload of studies documenting the advantage of being goodlooking to either gender.

Additionally, I'd like to be shown a feminist today who doesn't acknowledge differences between men and women. The perspective being touted here as 'feminist' is extremely old school and out of date. Every mode of thinking and movement evolves. There's no point in arguing with a viewpoint that's not really held by anyone to speak of today.

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15-10-2009
  89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PinkGoddess View Post
P

Why on Earth would you wish to filter out biological traits that each serve important purposes? Has the desire for political correctness brought people so far as to reject what is natural?

.
That's not at all what i said, I was saying that you seem to have trouble making distinction between what it is a biological trait and something that is a cultural construction. That's what progress has been giving women, the freedom from the reductive role of what was expected of them as females because society decided from times immemorial, that because apparently more delicate than men, more "beautiful" and the ones that carry babies , our role was solely solely to be ornamental and domestic related. It's not natural for women to wear high heels, the same way it was not natural for man to wear hats and they wore them religiously for centuries. It's simply cultural. You can live your entire life not wearing heels, not wearing a low cut top, never wearing a bit of make up, not having having babies or a husband, and still be a successful interesting woman. Where are those "natural" expectations that you are talking about? Expecting women to fulfill certain roles that society created for her based on nothing , for me it's simply and absolutely absurd . And sexist to an astonishing degree.

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16-10-2009
  90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PinkGoddess View Post
The differences between the races are purely physical, and the racial discrimination that has existed throughout history has not involved either specific races, or specific attributes assigned to races.
Eh? There are biological differences between races, as there is between women and men. You obviously don't get my point. You can't treat someone differently because of their race or gender, and most societies still do.

And hello specific attributes assigned to races...what about the Jews? OF COURSE they were and ARE discriminated against because of the really odd idea of them being rich, greedy, evil...all sorts of strange things. I could go on and on and on.

Same thing with women. I do not have great communication skills. I am not more emotional or sensible than most men. The list goes on. Basically, I don't have any of the psychological or emotional "characteristics" that you claim women to have. It's BS.

It's now more acceptable for women to posses some of what society used to perceived as male characteristics, at least where I live. That doesn't even apply to the rest of Europe. I think Scandinavia are decades further along than most of the Western civilization. It's not perfect, and there are still some very odd expectations towards women, but we're getting there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PinkGoddess View Post
When groups are discriminated against, the primary aim is simply to keep them powerless and assign arbitrary negative attributes, which is not at all the aim in a society that assigns women different roles.
Oh really? That is very naive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
Both men and women were not made to wear high heels. Expecting a women to wear high heels, just because she's a women, is indeed totally sexist.
Word.

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