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30-11-2013
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Phuel's Avatar
 
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^^^ Now I should say I don't know if Ryan is intentionally being daring and controversial in his depiction of these characters.

I have read a bit of Delphine, but I'm just not too interested in her to research in-depth. She was definitely a horrible being, but not to the maniacal and depraved cartoon she was portrayed in this show. I haven't read anything on the real Marie, and am only going by her portrayal on the show.

Of course white racism is more visible, in history and in this world. But racism of other races towards whites is also very prevalent. Does that make racism of other races towards whites more excusable because whites have been dominant in this world? Without getting into race relations and depiction, politics-- and personal experiences, and keeping the discussion within the context of this show, I do think it's interesting how blatantly racist Marie is portrayed, yet viewers may/ will still overlook this aspect and even excuse it by bringing in how much more prominent white racism is-- so Marie's racism is understandable/ tolerable/ excusable, because she is a minority. Racism is racism. One race shouldn't get off easier because they were historically treated so reprehensibly. And as a character who has lived for so long, and seen the changing attitudes in politics and society, Marie should know better than to be unmoved in her racist manners. How is that excusable?

So my praise for Ryan is that he's willing/ daring to bring that question up.

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30-11-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phuel View Post
I have read a bit of Delphine, but I'm just not too interested in her to research in-depth. She was definitely a horrible being, but not to the maniacal and depraved cartoon she was portrayed in this show. I haven't read anything on the real Marie, and am only going by her portrayal on the show.
You're confusing me. First you say you've read "a bit" on the real Delphine and then you say you "haven't read anything?" So how can you say with any authority that she was not "the maniacal and depraved cartoon" the show presents? I'm sorry, but respectfully, I don't think you can. As someone who has read enough about her, take it from me: She was much, much, MUCH worse than the "maniacal and depraved cartoon" Kathy Bates plays. And that's only going by all the awful, evil things she did that there is evidence of; who knows what else she got up to all those years ago. I shudder to think about it, honestly.



Quote:
Of course white racism is more visible, in history and in this world. But racism of other races towards whites is also very prevalent. Does that make racism of other races towards whites more excusable because whites have been dominant in this world? Without getting into race relations and depiction, politics-- and personal experiences, and keeping the discussion within the context of this show, I do think it's interesting how blatantly racist Marie is portrayed, yet viewers may/ will still overlook this aspect and even excuse it by bringing in how much more prominent white racism is-- so Marie's racism is understandable/ tolerable/ excusable, because she is a minority. Racism is racism. One race shouldn't get off easier because they were historically treated so reprehensibly. And as a character who has lived for so long, and seen the changing attitudes in politics and society, Marie should know better than to be unmoved in her racist manners. How is that excusable?

So my praise for Ryan is that he's willing/ daring to bring that question up.
Wow. There are so many problematic things in this last statement, I don't even know where to begin. I get the feeling that it wouldn't even matter what I said, you would still think that a minority being racist against a white person is somehow equal to the white supremacy (perhaps that will help you understand?) perpetrated in full, indomitable force by the western world. That's one of the reasons I find Ryan's handling of this series so careless and problematic, given how many people think exactly the way you do. Painting a black person as a villain is not daring; actually, it's rather cliche. He's only doing what writers, filmmakers, etc. have been doing for centuries, playing into the age-old myths and stereotypes of black people as the Evil Other--aggressive, violent, angry monsters. If you want to praise him for that--for being basic, mediocre, unimaginative, and (unwittingly or not) racist--by all means. Have it. I just can't join in.

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30-11-2013
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I wasn't a big fan of the first season and I didn't een finish the second season since I found it really boring and uninterestin. But boy oh boy am I loving the Coven! I love Angela Bassett, Kathy Bates and Jessica Lange. Even the ever so annoying Emma Roberts is doing pretty decent job. Can't wait for the next weeks episode!!!

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01-12-2013
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Finally managed to catch up and watched all the current episodes over the week-end

I though the episode 1 was week in pace, going too fast
Did not need the "I am a voodoo doll mwhahaha" or "oh yeah, you read people's mind" or things like that. They could have shown the powers naturally without explaining what they do. We can guess...

So women are GREAT! Jessica, Kathy, Angela... of course they deliver. Emma play the role very well (suits her) and I love Lily Rabe as well.

I find Zoe and Cordelia very weak characters (But both finally start to get interesting the the latest episode). I don't like this X-men approach of witches (Telekinesis? Come on!)
Gabourey is not good in my book and dead Tate/Kyle thing gets a little old.

I am not sure what to think, I like it. There is some big up and downs. I was expecting a full-front war after the zombie attack but it seems not. Not sure what is Fiona is doing...

Wait and see

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02-12-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickadee View Post
Wow. There are so many problematic things in this last statement, I don't even know where to begin. I get the feeling that it wouldn't even matter what I said, you would still think that a minority being racist against a white person is somehow equal to the white supremacy (perhaps that will help you understand?) perpetrated in full, indomitable force by the western world. That's one of the reasons I find Ryan's handling of this series so careless and problematic, given how many people think exactly the way you do. Painting a black person as a villain is not daring; actually, it's rather cliche. He's only doing what writers, filmmakers, etc. have been doing for centuries, playing into the age-old myths and stereotypes of black people as the Evil Other--aggressive, violent, angry monsters. If you want to praise him for that--for being basic, mediocre, unimaginative, and (unwittingly or not) racist--by all means. Have it. I just can't join in.
Wow indeed, chickadee.

I don't agree with you at all. I understand your stance, but I don't agree with any of your points. So there is a different standard for racism for Blacks to you? And a double-standard is acceptable? How about racism for Asians? East Indians? Natives? Middle Easterners? Hispanics? I'm not trying to make fun of you, but I think it's qrong to have a double standard for a certain race when it comes to racism. I'm a person of color, and I'm gay-- how would that work with your standards...? I try, and I hope I treat everyone with the same respect and courtesy in life (of course, here on TFS, it's a tad different when some poster will accuse me of being rude and offensive because I had suggested that being sad about a fashion designer leaving her label is being a tad dramatic. Just a tad...). But I also like to point out when there is an obvious and clear bias, even when intentions are well-intended, and that which often happens when it comes to being overly politically-correct.

As for the show Coven: I've read a bit on Delphine the psychotic slave owner on wiki, and nothing on Marie, the Voodoo Priestess. I hope that clears any confusion you may have.

Unless I'm mistaken, Delphine and Marie are not the same person. Although I don't know much about either women, I didn't expect this show to depict Delphine and Marie as they really were-- it's a Ryan Murphy entertainment show, not a PBS documentary. I'm basing my opinions on the show's portrayal of these fantasy characters.

And I've read enough of Delphine to know she didn't create a Minotaur from a victim, she didn't gauge the eyes and use the intestines of her victims to amuse and frighten guests at a party... These are all pretty much cartoon-villain characteristics. If the real Delphine committed such depravity, then I stand corrected. I've read that she chained an old woman to the stove in the kitchen, and the woman tried to torch the place and end her own life rather than deal with the consequences from Delphine for whatever mistakes she had made. That's more sad and horrific than any of the supposed gorefest the show attempted to shock with. So yeah, Delphine qualifies as a genuine monster for the deadly fear she caused this old woman, if nothing else. But Kathy is really good in her portrayal as Delphine so I like the character, in the show Coven.

linaKarolyna: I though Asylum had the strongest impact so far. There were some silly stories that either were rushed, or discarded, or concluded throughtlessly. But one of the main stories-- the one of Lana being committed to the horrors of mental and physical abuse because she was simply a lesbian, was the most horrific and cruel testiment to the times. The fact that some still think that of gays and lesbians that way to this day, and wish to commit the same type of abuse openly, is totally horrific, and plain hateful. Asylum didn't possess that classic supernatural horror of a ghost story like Murder House (the best one for me), but it's altogether a horror story, nonetheless. For me, anyways.

Coven is... fun. I feel no commitment to it however. Should it end abruptly, I wouldn't miss it. But then again, I've only ever enjoy TV casually and never was a fan of any show. So, I would not have missed any of the other ones either had they all ended before concluding their stories.

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04-12-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phuel View Post
Wow indeed, chickadee.

I don't agree with you at all. I understand your stance, but I don't agree with any of your points. So there is a different standard for racism for Blacks to you? And a double-standard is acceptable? How about racism for Asians? East Indians? Natives? Middle Easterners? Hispanics? I'm not trying to make fun of you, but I think it's qrong to have a double standard for a certain race when it comes to racism. I'm a person of color, and I'm gay-- how would that work with your standards...?
First of all, we're talking about two different things. What you're describing is prejudice. You seem to have latched on to a comparison I made between institutionalized racism and prejudice, and used "racism" as a blanket statement to cover all manner of sins. Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough, which is definitely possible since my previous replies were fairly quick and I sort of just vomited a response initially. At any rate, prejudice is individual bias, and institutionalized racism is any system or structure of inequality based on race. It's the difference between someone saying I don't like this group so I'm not going to befriend them and a person of color being unable to advance in their profession because a group of people have bought into stereotypes about that person's ethnic group--say, for example, that they're not as smart, not good enough, lazy, or what have you--based not on logic or individual assessment, but on a stereotypical image perpetrated by the media and/or society at large. Obviously they're both wrong, but surely you understand one has far greater impact than the other?

Anyway, I originally made that statement as an aside. My point is this: You're praising Ryan for "showing that racism knows no color," well, of course. That's like praising Ryan for deciding to write a human being. He's not the first person to write about non-whites as prejudiced. Several shows and films have done it before and far better than he's doing it. I don't get why that would be daring or brave or even all that interesting--I guess that's where I'm coming from. Anyway, my point is you're praising him for that, when the very depiction of these two characters shows just how influenced by institutionalized racism Ryan is.

Quote:
I try, and I hope I treat everyone with the same respect and courtesy in life (of course, here on TFS, it's a tad different when some poster will accuse me of being rude and offensive because I had suggested that being sad about a fashion designer leaving her label is being a tad dramatic. Just a tad...).
Ok...

Quote:
But I also like to point out when there is an obvious and clear bias, even when intentions are well-intended, and that which often happens when it comes to being overly politically-correct.
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here, but I have to tell you--this is no disrespect to you--but people whining about being politically correct is one of my pet peeves. It's just an excuse to mask what is really indifference to the feelings of unfairly and/or underrepresented groups.

Quote:
As for the show Coven: I've read a bit on Delphine the psychotic slave owner on wiki, and nothing on Marie, the Voodoo Priestess. I hope that clears any confusion you may have.Unless I'm mistaken, Delphine and Marie are not the same person.
Fair enough. That was my mistake. Like I said, I read and responded in knee-jerk fashion, so that's on me.

Quote:
Although I don't know much about either women, I didn't expect this show to depict Delphine and Marie as they really were-- it's a Ryan Murphy entertainment show, not a PBS documentary. I'm basing my opinions on the show's portrayal of these fantasy characters.

And I've read enough of Delphine to know she didn't create a Minotaur from a victim, she didn't gauge the eyes and use the intestines of her victims to amuse and frighten guests at a party... These are all pretty much cartoon-villain characteristics. If the real Delphine committed such depravity, then I stand corrected. I've read that she chained an old woman to the stove in the kitchen, and the woman tried to torch the place and end her own life rather than deal with the consequences from Delphine for whatever mistakes she had made. That's more sad and horrific than any of the supposed gorefest the show attempted to shock with. So yeah, Delphine qualifies as a genuine monster for the deadly fear she caused this old woman, if nothing else. But Kathy is really good in her portrayal as Delphine so I like the character, in the show Coven.
Here's my issue: He doesn't have to make a documentary, but there is clear bias in the way he has decided to portray these two characters. You call Delphine a "cartoon villain" but at least the writing imbues her with humanity. Marie, on the other hand, gets far less screen time, and when she is on screen, she's always presented as angry and violent. It's not about being true to life, it's being fair to both characters, both of whom were real women. I would not be as annoyed with LaLaurie's redemption arc if they were giving Marie another note to play besides one-dimensional villain. If you don't get why there's something wrong with that, then there's really nothing else I can say to make you get it.

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06-12-2013
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chickedee: I understand everything you've stated, even when you were "vomiting", as you've said. I respect and understand your perspective-- it's one I've heard before so I'm familiar with it. I "get it"-- I just don't agree with any of it. Because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I feel you're wrong, of course. I hope you can understand that without coming to the conclusion that I don't get it.

This newest episode is kind of a mess. It's fast-paced, and still quite fun: it's a telenovela kind of a fun mess. I sort of hope that since this season is pegged as a fun bitchfest, that the frantic-pacing and pattern of outlandish revelations of the last couple of episodes is the momentum for the remainder of the season. I don't mind checking any logic and common sense at the door for a bit of OTT fun.

I really did enjoyed the girls' reaction to Queenie when she pulled out her knife... Her powers are probably more lethal, potent and frightening than theirs so for stone-cold Madison to cringe is understandable.

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08-12-2013
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Oh, well in that case we can agree to disagree.

This past episode was indeed a huge mess. They need to make more use of Angela. Even the legendary Lange and the amazing Sarah Paulson are struggling to engage with the material they've been given. Bassett is the only one who rises above somehow.

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09-12-2013
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yeah.. they are starting to lose me. I hope things are getting somewhere...

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09-12-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickadee View Post
Oh, well in that case we can agree to disagree.

This past episode was indeed a huge mess. They need to make more use of Angela. Even the legendary Lange and the amazing Sarah Paulson are struggling to engage with the material they've been given. Bassett is the only one who rises above somehow.
Yeah, of course chickadee!

I hope I'm not giving you the impression I'm brushing your points off chickedee. Oftentimes, tone is lost in a post, and i really despise using a million emoticons to specify I mean no spite. As mentioned, I understand and respect your position; I'm reminded of these discriminations from time to time, both on a personal and professional level, and I doubt that these reminders will cease in my lifetime. So, even if I don't agree with you, I know and respect what you're standing up for.

I only kept my response short for the reason that I have a feeling that a mod is going to come in here and warn us about straying from the main discussion.

Just to get back with your argument of how poorly Marie is portrayed. I understand your frustration with how RYan may be handling her character. I'm fine with it since I don't feel that black characters are only ever portrayed as "The Evil One", as you do. My praise for Ryan is that he's not being delicate and PC with Marie: She's a racist, dangerous and an unforgiving adversary to the Salem witches. I don't see it as a demeaning cliche portrayal of a black character. I understand that's how you see it-- but presenting her as noble, virtuous vigilante is a cliche, to me. And I don't think she's a one-dimensional villain: SHe's shown to be cunning, strong-- and compassionate and protective of her crew and community. She's the alpha-female, the Matriarch. Of course, Marie isn't given much character-development, nor has she been given much screentime, but for anyone to immediately blame racism for that would be nothing but presumptuous to me. I'd definitely would prefer to see more of Marie and her crew than the tiresome teen threesome... Angela is really stealing the thunder from the entire cast: No one has her presence.

Anyway, I'm reveling in this mess like a pig in a sty. The twists are entertaining and plain whack. And with the revelation that Patti Lupone and her son are witches, it really is a fun 'ol mess. I really did not see that coming-- although it really was quite blatantly leading us there since she was thumping her bible so loudly... And bringing the dead back to life again and again just cheapens the concept of death in this case. Death no longer has any relevance here, and as long as Misty is around, her and Co. can just revive everyone they want. It's like a video game.

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10-12-2013
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Getting bored of this show and the weird obsessive fans who think wearing a black wide brim hat with black clothing makes them ~*~mag1kal witches~*~ now.

Every season so far I've gotten bored when it's over halfway done. Maybe next season will workout for me.

Any clues/ideas as to what the theme for S4 will be?

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12-12-2013
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Originally Posted by vandekamp View Post
Getting bored of this show and the weird obsessive fans who think wearing a black wide brim hat with black clothing makes them ~*~mag1kal witches~*~ now.

Every season so far I've gotten bored when it's over halfway done. Maybe next season will workout for me.

Any clues/ideas as to what the theme for S4 will be?



clues to Season 4:
Hints will start dropping in episode 11 & there is no Coven spin off in the works. Murphy also stated he would like Kathy Bates and Angela Bassett to return for S4.

Quote:
Co-creator Ryan Murphy tells EW that he will begin dropping hints about season 4 around episode 11, but he will say that, “It’s not contemporary.” He adds: “It’s either going to shoot in New Orleans or it’s going to shoot in Santa Fe.”
One thing viewers definitely won’t see is a rumored spin-off of Coven. Murphy told reporters earlier this fall that he and FX had discussed an AHS spin-off, centered on this season. But that project is dead as of now
-entertainment weekly


Jessica Lange will be leaving after season 4
Quote:
“It ends up being a lot of time during the year being committed to something… I haven’t done that for a long time. It’s like doing a stage play between the rehearsal and the run. This is a 6-month commitment every year. That will be four years in a row. I want to have more time to myself I guess. Once it’s over and I have a full year ahead of me with nothing to do, who knows? It might not have been the best decision. But I think four years doing something is a sufficient amount of time.”
- screenrant.com

I wonder if this means the show could be over, since Lange is the main figurehead/leading actress of the show. Unless he moves her to a minor role and brings out another leading actress.

Not confirmed: One site did suggest that S4 could be a carnivale theme.

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12-12-2013
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carnivale?? i hope it includes some sideshow elements….a la "freaks"…and nods to diane arbus. that might reengage me because asylum had that misfit sensibility about it.

i'm glad they're not doing a spin-off…frankly with the manic nature coven has gone,it's not even worth doing a spin-off.

sad to hear jessica will be leaving….she's been so central in this series,i wonder how it would do without her? now,if he gets angela and kathy back in more central roles,it might make up for her departure.

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12-12-2013
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the carnivale theme came up because Ryan Murphy is known to like "Freaks" & because Pepper from Season 2 is so beloved. I think Santa Fe would be a good location of that theme. Anyways that is just speculation.

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12-12-2013
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^
i adore that film myself…i just hope if it turns out to be the next series,he does something like that justice. i could actually see chloe sevigny playing a character similar to cleopatra…she has that look. but like you said…speculation at this juncture. i hope it comes to fruition though.

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