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12-05-2009
  31
Frozen irony.
 
pucci_mama's Avatar
 
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So it applies when you wear something most people around you don't wear at the moment?

Like I concider patent shoes quite classic but I remember about 5 years ago when it would still shock some people and I would get comments like where have you bought those a sex shop..?
Just because people were not really wearing them, does not mean they are avant garde? And now they are as common as normal leather! But surely that is just a cycle of fashion? Are these related?

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12-05-2009
  32
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it is related...yes...

depending on HOW you wear them..
remember...
it's about the context...

women wearing trousers is not a big deal in this moment...
but in the 20's/30's it was unheard of...almost scandalous...
VERY avant garde..

so, yes...
classic items can take on an avant garde vibe if they are worn in a new or unexpected way...

i think that a lot of people who wear avant garde designer clothing items tend to combine them with very classic pieces actually...
otherwise it can be 'too much'...
and it is no longer tasteful or elegant...
it just becomes a silly costume...

which you might be able to get away with if you are bjork or some other stage performer...
but for real life...
one does have to consider practical matters...

ie- a margiela top with no armholes, while interesting as a concept, is a bit difficult to cook dinner in...
...

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12-05-2009
  33
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Milada's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gius View Post
if what you meant was that you wore cardigans when your own generation didn't.
Ahaha. this reminds me of when I was younger and my brother looked at the laundry and said, ĻEw, Dad, how can you wear tighty-whitey underwear?Ļ And his reply was that his dadīs generation wore boxers, so they thought that was weird, so his generation wore the tighter, smaller, more fitted underwear underwear (I donīt know the proper term, sorry. I think itīs different from briefs). Not like I'd consider my boyfriend avant-garde if he wore them, but Iīm just feeling nostalgic.

So what about dressier boots on men, hats, dress coats? All would could considered avant garde at my home school because itīs so far from the norm. Yet Iīll just refrain from using the term, because itīs waaaay too context-sensitive.

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12-05-2009
  34
flaunt the imperfection
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BerlinRocks View Post
totaly ...
and i remember a friend who said 'oh look like a grandpa with your cardigan' ... and 2 seasons later this friend was wearing a cardigan because it hits some fabulous trendy shop ...

anyway ...

i wanted to post some "wearer" photos of avant-garde so i went onto SZ ... and sincerely found nothing very "pushing the envelope" ... i must say it's hard to find 'avant-garde' look outside the world of my sweet Rizzo ...
some of the SZ-ers are looking great and wearing some fabulous items but only a very few of them really push the bundaries (bcause they wear skirts over pants - a CDG total look almost) ...


we need pictures ...
+++ can we post pictures of SZ
?
why not?
they take pictures from here ...and even thread ideas...
heck that whole forum was born from tFS...
they wouldn't exist if it wasn't for tFS...



i tried to find pics too...
but it really isn't easy...
like i said before...
i think a lot of the people who do this do it in a subtle way...
and also..i don't think they necessarily like the camera or want the attention...

...

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12-05-2009
  35
Frozen irony.
 
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Thanks Soft.


I simply adore when someone takes something super classical and adds something avant garde into the mix. Classic with an edge. Sigh.

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12-05-2009
  36
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I would love to see some images of avant garde style in practice. Are there any public figures who are generally seen to be avant garde?

Also, I love how softgrey (I think) defined avant garde as being all in perspective with in historical context. Can this 'context' be extended to location, so - for example - whilst one outfit may not be avant garde in a big, cosmopolitan city such as NY or London, in a small village in the middle of rural England it would be avant garde.

I love this thread, thank you to everyone who has contribute with such insight

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12-05-2009
  37
V.I.P.
 
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pictures of styling work from the late 80s and 00s
I do consider avant-garde ...
stylists include Ray Petri, Stephan Linard, Olivier Rizzo

niwde.blogspot.com / vogue.co.jp / hfgl
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12-05-2009
  38
flaunt the imperfection
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chanelnumber5 View Post
I would love to see some images of avant garde style in practice. Are there any public figures who are generally seen to be avant garde?

Also, I love how softgrey (I think) defined avant garde as being all in perspective with in historical context. Can this 'context' be extended to location, so - for example - whilst one outfit may not be avant garde in a big, cosmopolitan city such as NY or London, in a small village in the middle of rural England it would be avant garde.

I love this thread, thank you to everyone who has contribute with such insight
glad you are enjoying the thread...


regarding location as context...
i think your question is valid and i have been thinking about this myself...
but i have to say..
in this world that we live in, where there are streetstyle and trendspotting pics all over the internet and the newstands...
i think that location isn't really a factor the way it might have been at some points in history...
i think that fashion and trends have really become global now...

this is definitely true for most major cities anyway...
of course, it's different in the suburbs and in rural areas..
so, i guess you could be considered fashion forward in smaller towns even if you would simply be considered trendy (or on trend) in major cities...

but i think that true avant garde style goes even beyond fashion forward...
it's doing something that no one else is doing yet...anywhere...
it's pulling stuff out of the sky...or out of your imagination...or from the bottom of your soul...



i think it's very hard to explain why you do it...
sometimes you don't even know why...
it just FEELS right...

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Last edited by softgrey; 12-05-2009 at 05:29 PM.
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12-05-2009
  39
flaunt the imperfection
 
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oh- berlin!...
is that pic with the jkt inside out styled by stephan linard?
i don't even know his work...but that image is styled beautifully...
very cool...

i also love the first one ...
total culture clash..the hassidic costume mixed with cowboy boots and wings...
priceless...
ray petri was so supremely influential...


all very nice examples my dear...
thank you very much for posting them...
...

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12-05-2009
  40
a hymn to darkness
 
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Avant garde is my favorite style of dress...
It has zero to do with who you're wearing or what niche it hails from...
It's all about how the wearer interrupts a thought, a feeling, an idea... a singular notion...
I love that...

This thread is fantastic guys... full of insight...

Whomever mentioned Bizzy over in the other thread is spot on. She, imho, is incredibly avant-garde. Her looks are very subtle and elegant, but there is always an underlying current of energy and the unexpected. Truly evocative...

Also older members like nr9dream and droogist come to mind, too... both always managed to meld the unexpected and elegant together quite beautifully...

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Last edited by wheneveriwakeup; 12-05-2009 at 09:05 PM.
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12-05-2009
  41
front row
 
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Very interesting discussions so far.

One thing that strikes me, however, is that this definition of 'avant garde' makes it quite hard to post the contemporary avant-garde... for essentially, it argues that the difference between simply being eccentric and being avant-garde is that in being avant-garde you are some kind of vanguard. That soon it will be recognised by the masses -or, at least, a group -as something to be adopted in a more mainstream way. That you push the boundaries of acceptability through innovation and manage to move them.

Now, talking about this historically, this all makes a lot of sense, and it's clear that YSL, the flappers etc. were avant garde. But how am I meant to know if my unusual dressing today is avant garde, or simply weird? How can you talk about being the start of a future movement today?

I also think a lot of the Japanese designers mentioned fall under the umbrella of 'eccentric' or, rather, adjacent to mainstream fashion rather than avant-garde. They have been doing what they have been doing, with their own history and evolution, for decades now and I can't see them ticking over so that in ten years we'll all be dressed in CDG. There's a certain snobbery in deeming your fashion territory to be that of the 'avant garde', the super-progressive, the uber-clothing... rather than just the niche you like to occupy.

Putting aside my general reservations about the concept of avant-garde clothing... I think what I see as very new are looks that combine a lot of texture and pattern, moving away from the grey/black/white minimalistic-with-drapey-details orthodoxy of a lot of edgy niche fashion. The kind of stuff Marras has always done, and which Dries does on the runway, styled like that rather than in a pared down tasteful way. Actually, Jane at sea of shoes is the most modern dresser I've seen for ages, I love her style because of this. It reminds me of the times before commercial fashion where you'd see a painting and the fabrics worn by the subject would be all different intricate patterns, colours and textures, less about being cool and more about an aesthetic landscape, and adornment. Love it. Don't have the guts to wear it 95% of the time, but I'm starting to do it more.

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12-05-2009
  42
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hi uberwench...thanks for joining the discussion...
love your post!...


Quote:
One thing that strikes me, however, is that this definition of 'avant garde' makes it quite hard to post the contemporary avant-garde... for essentially, it argues that the difference between simply being eccentric and being avant-garde is that in being avant-garde you are some kind of vanguard. That soon it will be recognised by the masses -or, at least, a group -as something to be adopted in a more mainstream way. That you push the boundaries of acceptability through innovation and manage to move them.


Now, talking about this historically, this all makes a lot of sense, and it's clear that YSL, the flappers etc. were avant garde. But how am I meant to know if my unusual dressing today is avant garde, or simply weird? How can you talk about being the start of a future movement today?
it's true...is is quite hard to pinpoint contemporary avant garde without some experience...
but fashion stylists do it all the time...it's their stock and trade...
...
and when you have lived on the planet long enough to see several decades of fashion recycled...
it becomes easier to recognise the difference between avant garde and simply kooky...
plus- you see people who actually do start wearing things and people follow...(or it happens to you over and over)...and then you start to be able to tell who is a true vanguard ...
:p

i won't deny that there may be some snobbery associated with the avant garde crew...
after all...they are not looking to belong to the masses, are they...?

**the word that keeps coming back to me when i think of the difference between avant garde and just plain 'weird' ...is...cool...
there is a nonchalance...
an effortlessness...


they haven't put on a costume...
they are just expressing what they feel at that moment...
no matter how different or odd what they are wearing may seem to anyone else, they are completely comfortable in it...
they OWN it...nothing seems 'forced'...


**maybe that is why people want to follow them eventually...
they just look so damn cool...
....

and maybe that's how you recognise them...

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Last edited by softgrey; 12-05-2009 at 11:28 PM.
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12-05-2009
  43
flaunt the imperfection
 
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from style.com
one of the greatest stylists of our time...lori goldstein...
this is a rare moment..you almost never see pics of her!...

but you see...she's dressed totally kooky...but on her..it looks normal...
:p..i love lori...
she's a genius!!!...
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Last edited by softgrey; 12-05-2009 at 11:07 PM.
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12-05-2009
  44
flaunt the imperfection
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheneveriwakeup View Post
Avant garde is my favorite style of dress...
It has zero to do with who you're wearing or what niche it hails from...
It's all about how the wearer interrupts a thought, a feeling, an idea... a singular notion...
I love that...


This thread is fantastic guys... full of insight...

Whomever mentioned Bizzy over in the other thread is spot on. She, imho, is incredibly avant-garde. Her looks are very subtle and elegant, but there is always an underlying current of energy and the unexpected. Truly evocative...

Also older members like nr9dream and droogist come to mind, too... both always managed to meld the unexpected and elegant together quite beautifully...
what an incredibly poetic thought my dear......
glad you like our little thread...


i couldn't agree more about the members you've mentioned...
i would also like to mention estella...
her style is an avant garde dream...

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12-05-2009
  45
flaunt the imperfection
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pucci_mama View Post
Thanks Soft.


I simply adore when someone takes something super classical and adds something avant garde into the mix. Classic with an edge. Sigh.
you're so welcome...
thanks for all the great posts......

i love this as well...
...

maybe the challenge is that as you get more advanced...
you can add more and more unusual pieces...
and still manage to look chic ...?

*now THAT's a challenge...is it not?!?...


:p

so...maybe part of the motivation behind this is challenging yourself...
not just challenging others...

because i guess in the end...
the motivation is still personal...
isn't it?...

because it's still about personal style...
so it's quite personal...yes?...
so maybe that's part of the reason it's so hard to define...

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Last edited by softgrey; 12-05-2009 at 11:25 PM.
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