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01-12-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by softgrey@Dec 1 2004, 02:37 PM
i'm glad you're over that phase now purple...
thx for sharing...
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Didn't suit me very well, I got my fake shirt covered in paint within like a day.

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01-12-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by helena@Dec 1 2004, 01:17 PM
Faust, I just wanted to expand and pose some more questions (mainly for the sake of the discussion). I agree with you but I suppose I am thinking about one particular person today whose story is by no means unique.

I was at school with a boy who had a hole in his heart and because of this his growth was stunted and he was outcast by his classmates as a freak & was bullied (& had no friends). As his family was poor he wore handknitted jumpers & second hand clothes so he was also teased for this as well as being small. However he was talented at art & at music - he could draw amazing pencil drawings that noone else could draw.

As he grew up he became more & more isolated & alone. At high shool his talents weren't really recognised & he never made much of his education. He left school, & after that I never really heard much of him for years other than that he no longer spoke to his parents.

Yesterday I was told me that he was found dead in his flat having choked on his own vomit in an alcoholic stupor. He lived & died completely alone.

Although this is a very specific story of one boy, are these themes not ones which apply to many people in life who don't receive mainstream acceptance? Of course you are right to suggest that it takes a stronger person to swim against the tide of popular opinion &, of course that is to be applauded, but what about those weak people who don't have the strength of mind to rebel? They just fall by the wayside unless they can find acceptance. If they find that acceptance from a harmless thing like an A&F sweatshirt then is that so wrong? Maybe not, but I don't know if thats the way to look at it.

there is a bigger issue here, one which I think is a fundamental human frailty. That is, the need most people have to belong to something. The need to be part of a coherent, identifyable group. This need both keeps society together but also prevents us from living harmoniously with those who are different from the group.

[Back on topic however,] this frailty is manipulated by the marketeers and advertisers but my question is - for some people is it not a good thing that they can buy acceptance in a Mall? Maybe ultimately it saves them....

You'll appreciate I am playing devils advocate here to an extent.
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Softie said it pretty well. It boils down to a choice, will you strive for acceptance and suffer (because no matter what people say, you can lie and create an image for others, you can even lie to your conscious rational self, but you can not lie to your essence - you are who you are), or will you go against the current (or even better, go outside of the current). Some people die, some become great artists. But the ones who conform become nothing, and that's pretty terrible. We all conform in certain ways (I'm held at ransom at work because I need an adequate income to feed my family), but we must be ourselves as often and as much as humanely possible. Some people don't stop where I stop - I have friends who hold various minimal income/minimal time jobs that are enough to feed them and give them some kind of shelter - they are more concerned with creating art (or what they think is art). I have much more in common with them than the dead that I work with. Teenagehood is also a phase when you want to be accepted. When you grow out of it and gain more self-confidence, you strive to be original and only laugh at the conformists. Look at us laughing at the sheep who bow down to dull magazines and insipid trends, we despise them. Then think, if you were a teenager and saw the same thing, how different your reaction would be. Purple's post is a fine example.

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01-12-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by PrinceOfCats@Dec 1 2004, 03:31 PM
My bar is displaying A&F ads now. (the ads have finally caught up with me). Damn this thread!

In England A&F is an odd concept - the English upper-middle-class spend most of their teenage years trying to pretend they're poor, IMI...
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Yes, poor-chic is a disease among the upper-middle class, it bugs me too because they are so full of ****.
I do love calling their bluff though.

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01-12-2004
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Quote:
A&F is a store for people who have no thoughts of their own. They think and dress in the mainstream to fit in. These customers are tweens to very early 20's. Most of the people that shop there are playing it safe, trying so hard to not stray from what's accepted.

It's pathetic on the customers' part, and it's sad that this company is taking advantage of an impressionable youth.
I agree with your comment, but disagree at the same time. Personally, as a student in high school, I can relate to the fact that we want to fit in. As sad as it may sound. But, while I do not shop at A&F, I think you can purchase items from these stores and still have your own personal style.

As for comments on the store. I avoid it due to the allegations of the company being racist. I'm really not sure whether or not it is, but I tend to stay away from it. I actually like some of the clothes, but other things are overpriced and just crappy looking.

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01-12-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by faust@Dec 1 2004, 03:50 PM
Softie said it pretty well. It boils down to a choice, will you strive for acceptance and suffer (because no matter what people say, you can lie and create an image for others, you can even lie to your conscious rational self, but you can not lie to your essence - you are who you are), or will you go against the current (or even better, go outside of the current). Some people die, some become great artists. But the ones who conform become nothing, and that's pretty terrible. We all conform in certain ways (I'm held at ransom at work because I need an adequate income to feed my family), but we must be ourselves as often and as much as humanely possible. Some people don't stop where I stop - I have friends who hold various minimal income/minimal time jobs that are enough to feed them and give them some kind of shelter - they are more concerned with creating art (or what they think is art). I have much more in common with them than the dead that I work with. Teenagehood is also a phase when you want to be accepted. When you grow out of it and gain more self-confidence, you strive to be original and only laugh at the conformists. Look at us laughing at the sheep who bow down to dull magazines and insipid trends, we despise them. Then think, if you were a teenager and saw the same thing, how different your reaction would be. Purple's post is a fine example.
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I agree with what you & softgrey have said. Everything you said is very true for me & the kind of person I am. Something you said Faust above strikes a chord - "the ones who conform become nothing, and thats pretty terrible" - I have that attitude about things - i loathe the thought of being mediocre. I always strive to do my best & to swim upstream. EVEN if that makes life more difficult for me....I ALMOST ALWAYS take the path of most resitance. But ....... what makes that a better choice? It doesn't always make me happier.... It makes life harder on occasion. Is that better? Sometimes the life of a non-conformist is not always an easy one. (Especially if you are a lawyer ). To be a successful non-conformist I think its necessary to have an extremely strong sense of self & self worth. Which brings me full circle - ironically maybe its the less self assured for whom A&F is the perfect veil for their inadequacies.

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01-12-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by helena@Dec 1 2004, 04:41 PM
I always strive to do my best & to swim upstream. EVEN if that makes life more difficult for me....I ALMOST ALWAYS take the path of most resitance. But ....... what makes that a better choice? It doesn't always make me happier.... It makes life harder on occasion.
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The pointed I am trying to stress is striving to be yourself. It does not necesserily have to a hard path. It just comes out that way, because of the crap society we live in...

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01-12-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by PrinceOfCats@Dec 1 2004, 03:31 PM
In England A&F is an odd concept - the English upper-middle-class spend most of their teenage years trying to pretend they're poor, IMI...


I'm curious. Is that an old rich reaction to America?

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01-12-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by faust@Dec 1 2004, 05:48 PM
The pointed I am trying to stress is striving to be yourself. It does not necesserily have to a hard path. It just comes out that way, because of the crap society we live in...
[snapback]446394[/snapback]

yeh you are right i think. we do live in a crap society in many ways.....

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01-12-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by helena@Dec 1 2004, 04:41 PM
Sometimes the life of a non-conformist is not always an easy one. To be a successful non-conformist I think its necessary to have an extremely strong sense of self & self worth.
[snapback]446370[/snapback]
i couldn't agree more...and i wear my most agressive clothes on days that i feel strong...so i can take all the looks and stares, and possible comments...

but i also find that if i am in a situation that poses some threat to me emotionally, my clothing can act as a suit of armour ...shielding me from possible confrontations with people who don't share my values or point of view...

i think this is a lot of what the 'goth' movement in teenagers is all about, right?...keeping people away who might potentially hurt you...

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01-12-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by softgrey@Dec 1 2004, 06:28 PM
i couldn't agree more...and i wear my most agressive clothes on days that i feel strong...so i can take all the looks and stares, and possible comments...

but i also find that if i am in a situation that poses some threat to me emotionally, my clothing can act as a suit of armour ...shielding me from possible confrontations with people who don't share my values or point of view...

i think this is a lot of what the 'goth' movement in teenagers is all about, right?...keeping people away who might potentially hurt you...
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I suppose you must be right about the goth thing. but there's also the uniform element there too....

I always wear my sharpest suit & least feminine blouse when I am going into a heavy meeting. Thats my armour. I try to shrowd any femininity. When I am having an easier day I wear a skirt & a prettier blouse.

I find all this really intresting buts its so complex....

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01-12-2004
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yes...very complex...but i love the psychology of it all...

but i think we have hi-jacked this thread...sorry hotpinky...i'm still trying to figure out how to split things off once we go off on a tangent...

if you want to start a new topic...i will understand...

otherwise...everyone please feel free to post your response to the original question regarding a&f...

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01-12-2004
  27
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Quote:
Originally posted by seraphelle@Dec 1 2004, 05:02 PM


I'm curious. Is that an old rich reaction to America?
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OT:

Probably, unconsciously. The irony is that we try to emulate America at the same time...

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01-12-2004
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Being a fashion forum, clothing is taken and discussed at a deeper level in the way that it relates to people.
I agree with what is being said, granted.

Sometimes a shirt is just a shirt.

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02-12-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tupolev@Dec 1 2004, 06:43 PM
Being a fashion forum, clothing is taken and discussed at a deeper level in the way that it relates to people.
I agree with what is being said, granted.

Sometimes a shirt is just a shirt.
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Absolutely. And those who don't see/care for the beauty of clothes and are concerned with other things that are cultural and deep are much closer to me and respected by me than the poseurs who do. The minute one states that they know and care about fashion is the minute they open themselves up to judgement on that subject.

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02-12-2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by faust@Dec 2 2004, 09:35 AM
Absolutely. And those who don't see/care for the beauty of clothes and are concerned with other things that are cultural and deep are much closer to me and respected by me than the poseurs who do. The minute one states that they know and care about fashion is the minute they open themselves up to judgement on that subject.
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But you do know and care about fashion don't you Faust. I know I do.

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