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05-10-2012
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Mutterlein's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tentacl Ventricl View Post

What Jil's offering this season delivers is the requisite quietitude of minimalism (call it the Zen calm if we will). I note you raise sustainability etc. I'm afraid that hairshirt eco piety is a leftover from early 90s green minimalism. The trail to the erstwhile, the campaigny holier-than-thou, the political, was what ultimately killed off that ecru linen strain of 'functional' minimalism. That way was light but unbearable. Since 2009 (Costa earlier) he, Costa, Phoebe, Miuccia and Raf have, somewhat tortously at times, been reinventing minimalism. Where they have arrived at, particularly this season, is spiritualism and sex.

Note how sheer, stripped down and/or dripping wet all the aforementioned designers have been this season. Jil is solid, functional, wearable-commercial, yes. But, in relative terms, her work, along the heat axis, is, I'm afraid, vanilla. Safe. You are saying so yourself.

On that point that one should'nt bludgeon Jil to the intellectual realm - well, ok, treat her as some sort of diffusion line then, derivative? I mentioned silhouettes in my earlier piece. I've realised that Jil's shapes for the season in fact are derived from those of Comme de Garcons and Prada last season. Pushed back to be more commercial yes, but those houses do have intellect. But you'd rather I just allow that, because of the commercial wearbility you wish for, I say the shapes are second cycle copies rather than insustantiating a notion of Jil being 'in dialogue'? We don't want any depth in our Jil? So long as it is nice to wear in the sense of non-controversial, modest, non-wasteful and such?

I've realised that you've an easy answer to my final point there - no that's not what you want - you said so. So, fine, Jil is for you then. But don't let the understanding of what Jil is stave you off from an appreciation of what she isn't. Her lack.
How obtuse of you to write off something like sustainability as a passe trend from the '90s. Or did you?

.... enough of THAT tangent...

Pardon me, I've only jumped into the conversation with this last comment, as it's been a bit tedious, but I think you are missing the point. Jil Sander is not designing for fashion discourse, for the runway, or for the overall entertainment machine fashion has become. It's not that she eschews depth or involving herself in any kind of dialogue, rather, unlike many of the others, she is not straining to be a part of it. Vanilla, pious, boring? Whichever, but I like to think Sander is designing for reality, which, if you watch the news and not the catwalk, is quite exciting enough. I believe Jil Sander works with belief, and I think Uemarasan would agree, that fashion should not be difficult. No runway shockers, no dissertations, no convoluted explanation of an explanation, just real clothes.

Personally, I'm more excited to see women of a certain age dressed in these clothes than some pseudo-intellectual post-helmut lang hodge podge.

But, whatevs, we all have different ideas of fashion and clothes that enchant us and we are obliged to pursue our own preferences.

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05-10-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterlein View Post

But, whatevs, we all have different ideas of fashion and clothes that enchant us and we are obliged to pursue our own preferences.
Exactly. Fashion is multidisciplinary. She may open herself to aesthetics or to sociology, to art, to business, to shopping. She lives in all these places. But perhaps dwell on this. One can have the aesthetics of fashion, the sociology of fashion, the art of fashion, the business of fashion. But can one have the shopping of fashion? It sounds awkward doesn't it? Better say the purchase or consumption of clothes? Or products? Note - the word 'fashion' dropped away. Perhaps we can't buy fashion. Shopping, in fact, is mere consumption of product. An activity which doesn't necessarily contain any 'ideas' whatsoever.

Yes early 90's minimalism is dead. Post millenial minimalism is a whole different kettle.

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06-10-2012
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You all fellas should become authors . All this literary talent is going wasted. F*** Jil! Come and help me with my tedious assignment, please.

[sorta serious about this request]


Last edited by Morphe; 06-10-2012 at 07:47 AM.
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06-10-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphe View Post
I see your point and I completely agree with the last paragraph but overall you managed to overly intellectualize, over-analyze, overread and overthink a good but simple collection with hit-or-miss sillhouettes that looks modest, non-threatening, but is widely considered to be a good attempt at modernizing the Jil Sander brand identity [semi-succesfully IMO].
Hmm, personally, I don't really see what I've done as going beyond the acceptable parameters of critical thinking, but there really is a thin line dividing intellectualizing and overly intellectualizing something. All I've said is that to appreciate Jil Sander you simply have to look at the purity and discipline of her designs. In a way, this purity and discipline are ideals that very much belong to the conversation about sustainability that is taking place now in art and design.

To overread and over-analyze this is to say that this represents a leavening of female identity from the sacred bread of fashion, body of worship, with pragmatism as the yeast that detaches the feminine mystique from the messianic masculine which has always determined and purposed clothing for women according to male whims and ambitions. Fashion is the battleground for the Holy War between the sexes!

I think saying that all designers are by nature narcissists is a bit of an over-simplification. You could say that all human beings are narcissists since every word and action we undertake is really a reflection of our lifestyles and ideologies, but my point is that Jil Sander doesn't believe in crafting a fashion "identity" for herself in the way that others designers have: Galliano, McQueen, Jacobs, Gaultier, Decarnin, Cardin, Quant, Schiaparelli, and yes, even Demeulemeester. That in itself is not necessarily a bad thing (I think Schiaparelli is still perhaps the greatest designer), but the reason I appreciate what Jil does is that I see in her clothes a turning away from this general tendency not just in fashion but in the arts.

Also, although the above observation has been "widely considered", clearly I don't share their sentiments. Is it overthinking to go against what this unidentifiable, faceless mass of "everybody else" has come to accept? I'd like to hope not.


Last edited by Uemarasan; 06-10-2012 at 04:26 PM.
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06-10-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tentacl Ventricl View Post
Yes early 90's minimalism is dead. Post millenial minimalism is a whole different kettle.
There seems to be some kind of miscommunication, because it seems that you are collapsing minimalism together with sustainability, or that I gave that impression in my response?

When I refer to sustainability I am not referring to the 90s Ferngully, Michael Jackson Earth Song, Captain Planet and the Planeteers brand of earth-hugging consciousness. I am referring to the serious scientific and political discussion of already palpable consequences, not just environmentally speaking but also with regards to human development, social justice, and economics. How is this dead or dated? The recent Venice Architecture Biennale was actually criticized for not doing enough to address issues of urbanism and human scale by still worshipping at the churches of the starchitects. Yves Behar and Architecture for Humanity are now among the most influential and important voices in design. Castaing-Taylor and Paravel's Leviathan is cinema's use of anthropology, essay, and film to stimulate discussion about biological systems and human presence. And when the most recent Olympics and the upcoming one were designed with sustainability expressly in mind, I can hardly call that a mere "leftover" from the 90s.

And when I say I admire Jil's purity, integrity, and discipline, I am saying that these are aesthetics that could very well fit into the paradigms of sustainability. With respect to what is going on outside of the industry, what else marks someone like Wang Shu's designs but the three ideals mentioned above? This is why I think what Jil stands for and has always stood for remain entirely relevant. That she achieves this without the need to make an aethetic statement, to follow a trend, to start a trend, in fact without the need to participate in "fashion" dialogue speaks volumes about the honesty of her approach. She makes clothes in this manner, for these simple and almost pure purposes and beliefs, and, intentional or not, I see this way of working and creating as fitting into the current milieu of social intelligence and awareness.

Mutterlein has already summarized and reiterated what I want to say better than I could ever hope to. Thank you for being so articulate.


Last edited by Uemarasan; 06-10-2012 at 05:53 PM.
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06-10-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uemarasan View Post
There seems to be some kind of miscommunication, because it seems that you are collapsing minimalism together with sustainability, or that I gave that impression in my response?

When I refer to sustainability I am not referring to the 90s Ferngully, Michael Jackson Earth Song, Captain Planet and the Planeteers brand of earth-hugging consciousness. I am referring to the serious scientific and political discussion of already palpable consequences, not just environmentally speaking but also with regards to human development, social justice, and economics. How is this dead or dated? The recent Venice Architecture Biennale was actually criticized for not doing enough to address issues of urbanism and human scale by still worshipping at the churches of the starchitects. Yves Behar and Architecture for Humanity are now among the most influential and important voices in design. Castaing-Taylor and Paravel's Leviathan is cinema's use of anthropology, essay, and film to stimulate discussion about biological systems and human presence. And when the most recent Olympics and the upcoming one were designed with sustainability expressly in mind, I can hardly call that a mere "leftover" from the 90s.

And when I say I admire Jil's purity, integrity, and discipline, I am saying that these are aesthetics that could very well fit into the paradigms of sustainability. With respect to what is going on outside of the industry, what else marks someone like Wang Shu's designs but the three ideals mentioned above? This is why I think what Jil stands for and has always stood for remain entirely relevant. That she achieves this without the need to make an aethetic statement, to follow a trend, to start a trend, in fact without the need to participate in "fashion" dialogue speaks volumes about the honesty of her approach. She makes clothes in this manner, for these simple and almost pure purposes and beliefs, and, intentional or not, I see this way of working and creating as fitting into the current milieu of social intelligence and awareness.

Mutterlein has already summarized and reiterated what I want to say better than I could ever hope to. Thank you for being so articulate.
Thank you too Uemarasan. I respect that in you also. And that we've been able to have a lively discussion without getting tiffy. And that you've extended my understanding of Jil's work. I will just say that if that's her ethic then, given when she came to prominence, if it's always been her outlook, then she is essentially of that early 90s movement you see as necessary to propigate but which I'm less sure about.

I guess I just like trends. It's kind of tied up with that sociological thing of reading where fashion is proposing we go in how we represent ourselves in society. Then seeing who's following who and stuff.

As almost a humorous aside, I hope you'll see, on the whole climate change eco thing - I read that warming phenomenen could be attributed merely to planatary movements including spatial relationship to the sun, alignment with MilkyWay etc. If it is to do with the cosmos there's not a lot we can do about it so we may as well party or do whatever Connects, if you want to go there, don't have to, to some stuff to do with winter solstice 2012. The Mayan calendar.


Last edited by Tentacl Ventricl; 06-10-2012 at 07:15 PM.
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07-10-2012
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While I love this collection , and have always adored Jil I do feel it is slightly dated- not the clothes per se, but the way they present themselves (does that make sense?) This collection could very well be from the mid-nineties, and while I'm sure the clothes will look amazing in real life (contrary to a lot of collections here) there is something missing.

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07-10-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tentacl Ventricl View Post
Thank you too Uemarasan. I respect that in you also. And that we've been able to have a lively discussion without getting tiffy. And that you've extended my understanding of Jil's work. I will just say that if that's her ethic then, given when she came to prominence, if it's always been her outlook, then she is essentially of that early 90s movement you see as necessary to propigate but which I'm less sure about.

I guess I just like trends. It's kind of tied up with that sociological thing of reading where fashion is proposing we go in how we represent ourselves in society. Then seeing who's following who and stuff.

As almost a humorous aside, I hope you'll see, on the whole climate change eco thing - I read that warming phenomenen could be attributed merely to planatary movements including spatial relationship to the sun, alignment with MilkyWay etc. If it is to do with the cosmos there's not a lot we can do about it so we may as well party or do whatever Connects, if you want to go there, don't have to, to some stuff to do with winter solstice 2012. The Mayan calendar.
The rest of the world continues to be very much involved with the sustainability movement. It seems like only the fashion industry continues to play dumb... Well, those at its forefront, anyway.

Hmm, a fashion celebration in the midst of utter nihilism. That would have made for an interesting narrative. I think McQueen did a collection that perfectly encapsulated that (F/W 2009).

I'm sure people are tired of my long-windedness already, so apologies for that. Anyway, I think I've exhausted all that I have to say here


Last edited by Uemarasan; 07-10-2012 at 04:57 AM.
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07-10-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphe View Post
PS. This collections feels more severe compared to her past offerings. I remember quite a few past collections with some cute flowery numbers, colourful prints and flowy dresses. And it was Vukmirovic who had a sportier, more minimal approach to the brand.
That's not correct. I guess you are referring to the collections she did during her brief return in mid-2000's. Those designs were not quintessential Jil, more likely some forced mass-market commercial offerings probably dictated by her then-boss Patrizio Bertelli. However, if you take a look at her iconic 90's collections you'll see what Jil really is about. Those collections might also be the reason why people perceive this collection as boring. She used to work with a lot more interesting fabrics, and especially her knitwear was super high-tech at the time, but I don't see that in this collection. I hope she will focus on these elements for the autumn collection.

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07-10-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uemarasan View Post
The rest of the world continues to be very much involved with the sustainability movement. It seems like only the fashion industry continues to play dumb... Well, those at its forefront, anyway.

Hmm, a fashion celebration in the midst of utter nihilism. That would have made for an interesting narrative. I think McQueen did a collection that perfectly encapsulated that (F/W 2009).

I'm sure people are tired of my long-windedness already, so apologies for that. Anyway, I think I've exhausted all that I have to say here
Now you really went and made it fascinating! I will return, with a discussion of McQueen AW08/09 and show how ecopiety and one type of nihilism in fact have much in common in their choking off of immersion in the present, in the embodied world of the here and now. Fashion is of course necessarily joined up with the now and the body, the pleasure in it, the body's, visualisation as a sensuous living form situated somewhere in space.

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07-10-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rip_ian curtis View Post
That's not correct. I guess you are referring to the collections she did during her brief return in mid-2000's. Those designs were not quintessential Jil, more likely some forced mass-market commercial offerings probably dictated by her then-boss Patrizio Bertelli.
Oh yes I do know where they are from
Quote:
However, if you take a look at her iconic 90's collections you'll see what Jil really is about. Those collections might also be the reason why people perceive this collection as boring.
I am aware of these collections too and to be honest, I consider more dull that this brand new one Great materials and techniques but always missing that zing.

Quote:
She used to work with a lot more interesting fabrics, and especially her knitwear was super high-tech at the time, but I don't see that in this collection. I hope she will focus on these elements for the autumn collection.
Which is why I consider it a semi-succesful attempt at modernising her brand.


Last edited by Morphe; 07-10-2012 at 08:38 AM.
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07-10-2012
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I can't not compare Jil's comeback with Raf's debut at Dior ready-to-wear.

Recently, the 'minimalism' thing has emerged and everybody talks about it. It has became a fashion myth.

Can we say that there are different kinds of minimalism or the designer's approach make it more or less valuable as a fashion event?

Minimalism as a technique:
I perceive Jil's attempt to be stronger, her minimalism can be seen throughout all the garments. For she uses it as a technique of construction, the collection was cohesive but one might find it cold and unpassionate. Mrs. Sander's presence is felt strongly, but just because of the masterful use of the craft she is known for. Soul was very well hidden, or simply there was no need for it to be there.

Minimal - insufficient - touch:
Raf Simons is kind of absent too. His work is not incisive enough - it lacks a law of his own, if I may say. It takes maturity for a designer to portray themself as an artist and it seems that Raf has addopted this goal for his career. In order to express that art - the art of the minimal, in our case - he didn't find other alternative than to only work on the surface of the garment. However, he was limited by another choice he made (we can see it as an excuse too): to strictly respect the Dior legacy. In fact, his lack of confidence translated into boring collections. I can force myself to appreciate his attitude of superficial touch by saying that his recent works were zen, but that works as an excuse as well.

A particular facet of fashion demands the piece of clothing to be an artifact. Precisely, a luxury artifact, produced by exclusive craftsmanship. It has to exist an extreme feeling of secrecy attached to the technique for the clothing to be considered high fashion by its consumers. In this sense, Mrs. Sander was succesfull, she didn't need to innovate because she already knows where she stands in the fashion industry. Maison Jil Sander as a medieval guild.

Politically, nevertheless, Sander's conservative task was easier to accomplish. She didn't have to take into consideration a huge past of accumulated tradition. Raf had to conciliate his own desire with a bigger structure behind him; Jil Sander had only to be herself and finally come back.

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08-10-2012
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I can't not compare Jil's comeback with Raf's debut at Dior ready-to-wear.
Oh yes you can.
That thesaurus sure came in handy.

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08-04-2013
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well--
the quality and the cuts are back and the fabrics are back to original jil a well...
the crispy cottons, the melting-ly soft cashmere, the sumptuous silks...

nothing is as simple as it first appears...
every detail has been considered and addressed...
beautiful, beautiful clothes to wear wear wear...

such a relief to have her back...
...

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Last edited by softgrey; 08-04-2013 at 12:43 PM.
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