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20-03-2013
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I love you Phoebe... I really do! ... and I feel really bad doing this.. but...

Lee Miller 1930...


Céline 2012


Style.com and christies.com

 
 
20-03-2013
  317
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Another literal copy.
Everyone is usually calling out Wang and MJ, so it's quite surprising to see Philo as another copying designer :/

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20-03-2013
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For some reason, those two Celine copies don't bother me.

Most designers pull from vintage. They'll do inspiration shopping trips, library and museum visits, etc. It's extremely common. Sometimes only details and ideas are lifted from all the research - sometimes things are literally copied.

When someone like Marc Jacobs or Phoebe Philo makes direct copies like this, it always feels like even though it's a literal replication they're somehow recontextualizing the piece and making into something that looks and feels like their work. They have strong enough voices/points of view that are unique and individual. Also - it's not like the entire collection was a copy. It's one look/one piece. I don't feel like these examples reflect negatively on their creativity. Some of the greatest songs in history have used samples from other songs. They've directly taken one particular loop or chorus from another song and integrated it into an entirely new creation. Think of it like that.

It feels different for me when someone like Joseph Altuzarra copies. Because while there usually isn't any direct copying going on of any one particular item of clothing, the whole idea of the collection and the look of the collection and the styling of the collection tends to always be lifted from someone else's past collection. It's almost as if he wishes he had created those older collections himself because he loves them so much and so he sort of remakes it (think of his Fall/Winter 2010 that was essentially a remake of the entire Gucci Fall/Winter 2003 collection). He, to me, has no clear voice as a designer and I find his version of copying far more offensive.

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Last edited by dior_couture1245; 20-03-2013 at 01:00 PM.
 
20-03-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dior_couture1245 View Post
For some reason, those two Celine copies don't bother me.

Most designers pull from vintage. They'll do inspiration shopping trips, library and museum visits, etc. It's extremely common. Sometimes only details and ideas are lifted from all the research - sometimes things are literally copied.

When someone like Marc Jacobs or Phoebe Philo makes direct copies like this, it always feels like even though it's a literal replication they're somehow recontextualizing the piece and making into something that looks and feels like their work. They have strong enough voices/points of view that are unique and individual. Also - it's not like the entire collection was a copy. It's one look/one piece. I don't feel like these examples reflect negatively on their creativity. Some of the greatest songs in history have used samples from other songs. They've directly taken one particular loop or chorus from another song and integrated it into an entirely new creation. Think of it like that.

It feels different for me when someone like Joseph Altuzarra copies. Because while there usually isn't any direct copying going on of any one particular item of clothing, the whole idea of the collection and the look of the collection and the styling of the collection tends to always be lifted from someone else's past collection. It's almost as if he wishes he had created those older collections himself because he loves them so much and so he sort of remakes it (think of his Fall/Winter 2010 that was essentially a remake of the entire Gucci Fall/Winter 2003 collection). He, to me, has no clear voice as a designer and I find his version of copying far more offensive.
I see your perspective, but at the same time, this is a prime example of how selectively biased people can be when it comes to certain designers. It's ok for some designers to blatantly copy others without being ever called out, in this case even justified, while others get slaughtered for displaying similar designs shown by others.

Copying is copying. It happens. But why do some designers get special treatments? I suppose some designers have a cult following that are willing to turn a blind eye and hold them up on a pedestal and claim they "can do no wrong".

I've never understood the Phoebe Philo/Celine phenomenon and always find it to be way overhyped, anyway.

 
20-03-2013
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I don't find the Geoffrey Beene and Céline outfits to be copies of one another.

For one, isn't the Beene coat just a *picture* of a coat with its sleeves tied --as in, the coat cannot be worn that way. I don't see separate holes for the arms. One has to untie the sleeves to put it on.

Philo may have been inspired by it, yes, but she took it to a new aesthetic; the Céline coat can be worn with the sleeves tied or untied. She elevated the piece. I think it is okay to recognize her inspiration, but, also, to applaud her for her creativity.


Last edited by StylishCynic; 20-03-2013 at 02:17 PM.
 
20-03-2013
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Don't mind about the Lee Miller inspiration because it was like 80 years ago, but the Geoffrey Beene.. even the seam placements are the same.
I do wonder if the Beene can be worn both ways though?

 
20-03-2013
  322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ives927 View Post
I see your perspective, but at the same time, this is a prime example of how selectively biased people can be when it comes to certain designers. It's ok for some designers to blatantly copy others without being ever called out, in this case even justified, while others get slaughtered for displaying similar designs shown by others.

Copying is copying. It happens. But why do some designers get special treatments? I suppose some designers have a cult following that are willing to turn a blind eye and hold them up on a pedestal and claim they "can do no wrong".

I've never understood the Phoebe Philo/Celine phenomenon and always find it to be way overhyped, anyway.
But I explained that I feel there genuinely is a difference - I'm not justifying designers like Marc or Phoebe simply because I like them. There are designers like Rei or Yohji who are completely un-referrential. There are other designers, like Marc or Phoebe who have very strong points of view but who are referrential - of different times, different places, different people, different films, different artists, different music, and yes, sometimes, even different designers. But no matter what - when you look at their collection you always you know it is a Marc collection, or a Celine collection. I just believe that.

Other designers seem to have no ideas of their own, and therefor, everything they do looks like a poor man's version of what it is they're referrencing. That is why I'm critical on someone like Altuzarra - he has no unique vision. Who is the Altuzarra woman? I have no clue - so far she's been a Tom Ford girl one season, a Balenciaga girl several times, a Mugler girl one season, she's even been a Gaultier girl! When I look at a Marc show - I always see a Marc girl. When I look at a Celine show, I always see a Celine woman...regardless of whether or not they have a copied piece thrown in the collection.

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Last edited by dior_couture1245; 20-03-2013 at 02:40 PM.
 
20-03-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dior_couture1245 View Post
But I explained that I feel there genuinely is a difference - I'm not justifying designers like Marc or Phoebe simply because I like them. There are designers like Rei or Yohji who are completely un-referrential. There are other designers, like Marc or Phoebe who have very strong points of view but who are referrential - of different times, different places, different people, different films, different artists, different music, and yes, sometimes, even different designers. But no matter what - when you look at their collection you always you know it is a Marc collection, or a Celine collection. I just believe that.

Other designers seem to have no ideas of their own, and therefor, everything they do looks like a poor man's version of what it is they're referrencing. That is why I'm critical on someone like Altuzarra - he has no unique vision. Who is the Altuzarra woman? I have no clue - so far she's been a Tom Ford girl one season, a Balenciaga girl several times, a Mugler girl one season, she's even been a Gaultier girl! When I look at a Marc show - I always see a Marc girl. When I look at a Celine show, I always see a Celine woman...regardless of whether or not they have a copied piece thrown in the collection.
In Altuzarra's defense, he is a younger designer and still has a lot of branding to do. He's young and he's experimenting with his aesthetic. Or maybe he's just a mediocre designer.

In regards to the designers you mentioned, Marc and Pheobe, they have a lot more design experience compared to someone like Altuzarra. But because they have strong points of view, they are exempt from scrutiny and criticism for "copying/blatant referencing", as opposed to Altuzarra? Do they have stronger points of view or are they just smarter at copying?

I'm simply posing a question, not saying your perspective is wrong. However, copying from another designer, is copying another designer. In this case, Celine has unapologetically replicated the same design.


Last edited by Ives927; 20-03-2013 at 06:27 PM.
 
20-03-2013
  324
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Phoebe is just another rat. But her accessories are very popular and chic so she gets a pass.

 
20-03-2013
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a lot of people in fashion work with the 10 year rule, if it's older than a decade then you're allowed to reference/copy it
they even teach that at csm, at parsons they probably teach a one season rule

 
21-03-2013
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Geez.. Is there even a designer who does not copy or, to put it positively, "take inspiration" from other designers who exists? I highly doubt it.

Now going back to Phoebe, I love her but come on, those are solid copies.

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21-03-2013
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well seeing as how Beene's isn't wearable, it's clear he was just a reference and I actually love that she turned it into a cape. The sweater above is questionable though although it seems as if that outfit is inspired by that time era so I can see how they might have stumbled on it

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21-03-2013
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The Celine thing doesn't surprise me, there also used to be a lot of Balenciaga references from the same time period the coat was designed. But I like hers better than the Geoffrey Beene.

 
24-03-2013
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Acne Fall 2012 vs. Dior Homme Fall 2006


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25-03-2013
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omg i love those dior ones, acne's look cheap

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