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02-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dajrekshn View Post
i don't think anyone (in their right mind) here is doubting who's the abuser and the main criminal in this story. i'm thinking people are just trying to understand why this kid was put in care of this person at the age of 17 without any parental advisory and how that "mondus operandi" might've affected her "coming out" and then in general what kind of things do affect that coming out of the victims in these cases, no?
Yes, thank you. Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
Instead of trying to shift any sort of blame to the woman that was raped for crimes she has didn't commit that may happy next, I think your energies would be put to much better use being angry at justice system women do not trust to report such horrific crimes.
I can totally understand why she didn't report it, they would have simply destroyed her.
I am not at all trying to shift the blame on to the victim. Are you serious? Sorry, but I won't allow anyone to try and put on me the idea that I blame this girl for her own rape or the future rape of others. I was simply trying to state the (obvious) importance of the crime being reported. And it's a strong support system involving family and friends (that every woman should have) that helps her do just that, despite how horribly frightening it is to do so.

That was my whole original point and I stand by it.

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02-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hedur View Post


I am not at all trying to shift the blame on to the victim. Are you serious? Sorry, but I won't allow anyone to try and put on me the idea that I blame this girl for her own rape or the future rape of others. I was simply trying to state the (obvious) importance of the crime being reported. And it's a strong support system involving family and friends (that every woman should have) that helps her do just that, despite how horribly frightening it is to do so.

That was my whole original point and I stand by it.
Rape is extremely complex, and although friends and family are fundamental in the after math, a safety net does not guarantee that someone will report a rape. They may not report a rape exactly because they feel they are letting everyone one down or feel bad because they will be upsetting the loved ones.
There are millions of reasons why rape is not reported, but if you want to point fingers why not start with the awful track record our justice system has in the treatment of rape victims?
And no a good upbringing does not guarantee that you will not go off the rails, or that you will not end up in the hands of a rapist. I'm sorry but it's very naive to think the world is this straightforward.

I do not know why you keep on bringing the importance of victims to report to rape to protect the next possible victims, and I quote " for the good of us all" . Rape victims should report a rape because they are victims of a crime, and the rapist should be punished for that crime. They should never in any way or form be left thinking that if they do not report it they are in a way being complicit with the rapist. I admire immensely the people that have the courage to speak up and that demand justice. The fact that they are helping us all, should be commended. But i do not think at all women should feel pressed to speak up about their horrible experience just to protect some hypothetical future victims.
And in the case of Carre is even more glaring, she would not have a chance in hell against her rapist, he would simply crush her, i cannot understand how anyone has the heart to criticise her decision.

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02-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hedur View Post
I was simply trying to state the (obvious) importance of the crime being reported. And it's a strong support system involving family and friends (that every woman should have) that helps her do just that, despite how horribly frightening it is to do so.
Regardless of how supportive the friends and family of a victim are, if the police and justice system are unsympathetic (putting it kindly) towards the victims of rape and sexual abuse, I don't think it's surprising that it's under-reported in many cases. I can totally see why Carre didn't report it at the time. Hell, they probably would have said that she was "asking for it."

Reporting a rape isn't as simple as you are making it sound.


Last edited by blueorchid; 02-11-2011 at 10:35 PM.
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02-11-2011
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^ you and Les_Sucettes are right - look at the treatment of Roman Polanski's 13-year-old victim by the media of her day when she went public with her accusations (calling her "Lolita" and so forth, never mind that Lolita in the actual book is the virtual prisoner of a paedophile). Is it really likely that Carré, who was just a handful of years older than that, would have fared any better even if the law enforcement and justice systems did back her up?

Sexual harassment seems to be fairly prevalent in modelling (remembering that doc Picture Me from two years ago) - it's a business where extremely young, often underage, girls are removed from their parents' supervision, transplanted to unfamiliar places and told they have to make money. I think it's cruel beyond belief to suggest that the parents are the ones responsible for these things happening to their daughters and sons, especially when not every family can afford to let one parent chaperone their child full-time around the world. What about the agencies' duty to not abuse these girls in the first place? Gerald Marie is probably never going to atone for his crimes or even suffer any consequences, and that, frankly speaking, disgusts me. What a repugnant human being.

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Last edited by Drusilla_; 02-11-2011 at 11:03 PM.
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03-11-2011
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unfortunatly there are men in this world who see no problem in taking advantage of a 15 or 16 year old girl.
didn't what's his name just marry that Courtney girl who is 16?? what does a girl know at 16, really?

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03-11-2011
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i also think that most girls don't report rape simply because they are afraid nobody will believe them.
especially if it's a teenage girl/ old man situation. just like Carre's.

In a lot of countries/ cultures when a girl reports a rape the police or family try to make her feel guilty. telling her she must ve done something to make the man believe it's ok to rape her.
it's very unfortunate but very true.

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Last edited by FASHIONLOVA; 03-11-2011 at 04:41 AM.
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03-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
I do not know why you keep on bringing the importance of victims to report to rape to protect the next possible victims, and I quote " for the good of us all" . Rape victims should report a rape because they are victims of a crime, and the rapist should be punished for that crime. They should never in any way or form be left thinking that if they do not report it they are in a way being complicit with the rapist. I admire immensely the people that have the courage to speak up and that demand justice. The fact that they are helping us all, should be commended. But i do not think at all women should feel pressed to speak up about their horrible experience just to protect some hypothetical future victims.
And in the case of Carre is even more glaring, she would not have a chance in hell against her rapist, he would simply crush her, i cannot understand how anyone has the heart to criticise her decision.
Why? Because keeping dangerous predators off the streets is important to me.

The meaning of “good of us all” should be obvious. There are two reasons that people go to jail. To pay for their crime AND to keep them off the streets to protect society. That’s why it’s called the “possibility”, not “guarantee”, of parole. In order to get parole inmates have to convince the parole board that they are no longer a threat to society. It’s also why murder crimes are tried whether the victim’s family presses charges or not. It’s for the protection of society…”the good of us all”. Every time a criminal is prosecuted it’s not only for the victim, but for all the possible future victims. It most certainly isn't fair that a woman be made to feel that her private decision could affect others, but it doesn't change the fact that her decision will definitely affect others.

It’s interesting that someone brought up Roman Polanski. He was a high profile and powerful Hollywood director and was in a position of authority over his victim because she (or her mother) wanted her to break into show business. He used that position of authority to brutally rape her. From the posts here, I gather most of you would have made the argument that she shouldn’t press charges because no one would believe her anyway. But the facts are they DID press charges and despite his position, and the horrible things people said about her, he WAS found guilty. The only thing that kept him from receiving his full sentence was that he fled the country. The only good I can say bout the whole mess is at least women who know of his past would know to stay away from him and I’m sure some were spared because of it. And that would not have been the case if his victim had not pressed charges.

If a victim of rape chooses to press charges she MAY be called a liar, humiliated, and her attacker go free. Another possible outcome is that she is believed, her attacker is found guilty, and he is punished for that crime and many women are kept from the same horrible fate by the hands of that man. Those are both maybes. But there is one thing for CERTAIN. If a woman chooses to remain silent then her attacker will DEFINITELY go free and most likely feel more empowered to terrorize other women in the future.

The general opinion here seems to be that even the possibility of the first outcome I mentioned is scary enough to make a decision that almost ensures the third outcome. MY opinion is that sometimes unbelievably difficult (horrifying, nightmarish, unjust) decisions have to be made in order for us to have a better world. And a strong family unit is the very thing a woman needs to make that horribly difficult decision.

Unlike murder, which is automatically reported just because there’s a dead body, there will never be a law that requires women to report rape. But for those that muster the courage to do so, I have the utmost admiration and respect.

And with that I’ve definitely said my peace. I’ll only respond again if someone attacks me or tries to twist my words into something I didn’t mean.

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03-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hedur View Post
I’ll only respond again if someone attacks me or tries to twist my words into something I didn’t mean.
just as a general comment, talk like this^ makes it really difficult to keep a normal discussion going. no one is/was attacking you or twisting your words.

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03-11-2011
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^ The only reason I said it is because I am fully aware that I have beaten this horse to death and I wanted to make clear that I didn't intend to keep trying to convince others of my views. Also, someone clearly accused me of blaming the victim for being raped. That is what I was referring to with "twisting my words".

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03-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hedur View Post
Why? Because keeping dangerous predators off the streets is important to me.

The meaning of “good of us all” should be obvious. There are two reasons that people go to jail. To pay for their crime AND to keep them off the streets to protect society. That’s why it’s called the “possibility”, not “guarantee”, of parole. In order to get parole inmates have to convince the parole board that they are no longer a threat to society. It’s also why murder crimes are tried whether the victim’s family presses charges or not. It’s for the protection of society…”the good of us all”. Every time a criminal is prosecuted it’s not only for the victim, but for all the possible future victims. It most certainly isn't fair that a woman be made to feel that her private decision could affect others, but it doesn't change the fact that her decision will definitely affect others.

It’s interesting that someone brought up Roman Polanski. He was a high profile and powerful Hollywood director and was in a position of authority over his victim because she (or her mother) wanted her to break into show business. He used that position of authority to brutally rape her. From the posts here, I gather most of you would have made the argument that she shouldn’t press charges because no one would believe her anyway. But the facts are they DID press charges and despite his position, and the horrible things people said about her, he WAS found guilty. The only thing that kept him from receiving his full sentence was that he fled the country. The only good I can say bout the whole mess is at least women who know of his past would know to stay away from him and I’m sure some were spared because of it. And that would not have been the case if his victim had not pressed charges.

If a victim of rape chooses to press charges she MAY be called a liar, humiliated, and her attacker go free. Another possible outcome is that she is believed, her attacker is found guilty, and he is punished for that crime and many women are kept from the same horrible fate by the hands of that man. Those are both maybes. But there is one thing for CERTAIN. If a woman chooses to remain silent then her attacker will DEFINITELY go free and most likely feel more empowered to terrorize other women in the future.

The general opinion here seems to be that even the possibility of the first outcome I mentioned is scary enough to make a decision that almost ensures the third outcome. MY opinion is that sometimes unbelievably difficult (horrifying, nightmarish, unjust) decisions have to be made in order for us to have a better world. And a strong family unit is the very thing a woman needs to make that horribly difficult decision.

Unlike murder, which is automatically reported just because there’s a dead body, there will never be a law that requires women to report rape. But for those that muster the courage to do so, I have the utmost admiration and respect.

And with that I’ve definitely said my peace. I’ll only respond again if someone attacks me or tries to twist my words into something I didn’t mean.
But they're not "on the street". They're your co-worker, your uncle, your neighbor across the hall. You have a "romanticized" notion of rape. A dark, shadowy figure lurking in an ally is an unrealistic depiction of a rapist.

You also are very, very naive of the criminal justice system and how it works. NEVER in a million years would someone like Gérald Marie be prosecuted or even be charged with the scenario presented. A murder investigation and subsequent trial has absolutely nothing to do with how a rape investigation and trial would proceed.

I strongly urge you to read up on recent rape trials, investigations, and accusations because you don't have a clue.

She did what she had to do to survive.

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03-11-2011
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Guys, we've had this discussion on rape before, just so you know: it never ends happily, but just to prolong the life of this, please try to be respectful, name-calling, no matter how subtle or inoffensive it appears, is always insulting to some degree, so let's address points and not the psyche of others and make this a discussion worth participating and worth reading, too.

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03-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FASHIONLOVA View Post
i dont think he 's ever gonna be punished for anything he did.
when the whole scandal broke out a decade ago he wasn't fired or anything.
Much like with Terry Richardson; he definitely has taken advantage of young girls and yet he is this big celebrity. It is sooooo vulgar.

Anyhow, HUGE BRAVO for Carre's brave declaration. Good for her, though horrid that the jerk will get off scotfree.

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03-11-2011
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Originally Posted by wendla View Post
But they're not "on the street". They're your co-worker, your uncle, your neighbor across the hall. You have a "romanticized" notion of rape. A dark, shadowy figure lurking in an ally is an unrealistic depiction of a rapist.
Well, since this totally falls into the category of "twisting my words", or more accurately misunderstanding them completely, I think I'm justified in answering here.

I don't mean to embarrass you, but, anyone who is a native (North American) English speaker would understand that by "off the streets" I only meant someone who isn't in jail. That's a common term here in N. America. Read it again with that understanding and you may comprehend my meaning better.

And while I'm here I might as well....

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Originally Posted by wendla View Post
You also are very, very naive of the criminal justice system and how it works. NEVER in a million years would someone like Gérald Marie be prosecuted or even be charged with the scenario presented. A murder investigation and subsequent trial has absolutely nothing to do with how a rape investigation and trial would proceed.
Except for Roman Polanski. An example I used not too far above you. Not sure what your agenda is for pretending that a woman can never receive justice when she reports a rape.

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Originally Posted by wendla View Post
I strongly urge you to read up on recent rape trials, investigations, and accusations because you don't have a clue.
Since reading this thread I have studied up on rape statistics and read the advice given on many rape crisis center websites. The majority of them encourage women to report the rape (in their time) and one of the main reasons they give is the fact that they will be helping others escape the same fate.

I knew my opinion was common sense but it was nice to see it backed up by the professionals.

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04-11-2011
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Much like with Terry Richardson; he definitely has taken advantage of young girls and yet he is this big celebrity. It is sooooo vulgar.
Part of me has to wonder if Terry isn't one of the more "innocent" (ok that's not really a good word for what I am trying to convey, but you know what I mean) people in the fashion industry when it comes to this type of abuse. Like really, he's such an obvious example and much more "open" I guess than others.

I mean, his status is nothing compared to many of the giants who partake in this.

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04-11-2011
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Although Roman Polanksi was convicted of his crimes, he is a good example of someone who was able to use his power and influence to, so far, get out of actually serving time. He has a good number of those in Hollywood supporting him and big names going as far as signing a petition demanding he be released from Swiss custody. And now he has a movie coming out with Kate Winslet and Jodie Foster.

It's that same power and influence that protects men in the fashion industry from being held accountable for their actions. Jean Luc Brunel, John Casablancas, Claude Haddad, Terry Richardson, Gerald Marie and I'm sure countless others.

The fashion industry's response to these issues seems to be to brush it under the rug or to approach it with an almost fatalistic attitude. Small steps have been taken but much more needs to be done to protect models, in particular those who are underage.

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