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12-01-2018
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I've seen and heard a lot about this affair and while i disagree for the most part of what has been said in that petition, i totally agree about the need for that other voice to be heard.
For me, from that petition, i can see a conflict of generation, of class but also of culture.
Anglo-saxon culture is all about puritanism and i'm totally sure that his kind of petition would have never been published. I think this is an opportunity to open discussion and that's what is happening in France.

Those women are feminists in their own right but it's a different kind of feminism. There are a lot of debates on french tv involving some of the women who signed the petition against those who are totally against it. And in a way, there a lot of layers in that but also a lot of disagreement in the group of the women who signed the petition.

But ultimately, this is good for democracy to be able to hear different voices and to have discussions. Social media is obviously against that, against discussions.

Thanks to this, i feel like i have a responsability to educate that older generation on what is really happening in the world, in the subway, in this era.

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12-01-2018
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I still haven't seen the petition itself, so I'm not sure what it says. Is it available in English? I'm quite sure my college French isn't up to the challenge

I'm all for discussion, as mentioned in my last post. We are animals with large brains who claim to be civilized, but fairly often that's not true. Discussion is absolutely needed. I somewhat understand concerns about going too far; I don't want to see good men get crucified on a cross constructed for those who really deserve it, and I think that may already be happening. But it's difficult for me to understand a woman not supportive of the movement as a whole/in general.

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13-01-2018
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Not surprised with this petition, a lot of French celebrities, the older apparently the most affected, seem to suffer from the “Cool Girl syndrome”, God Forbid if they will support a bunch of hysterics demanding respect. You do not become someone’s muse by complaining about misogyny.

I see a million problems with this #metoo movement, but i will never understand people that are actively against it.


Last edited by Les_Sucettes; 13-01-2018 at 05:16 PM.
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15-01-2018
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Catherine Deneuve apologises to sex attack victims after #MeToo controversy
Quote:
French actor says she stands by letter that caused outcry but condemns other signatories for distorting the spirit of its message

Catherine Deneuve has apologised to female victims of sexual assault who were shocked and hurt by the controversial letter she signed attacking the #MeToo campaign.

The French actor said she stood by the statement that caused an international outcry when it was published last week, but distanced herself from a number of other female signatories.

Le Monde newspaper, which ran the original letter, described Deneuve’s response to the row as “a form of mea culpa”.

About 100 French women, including high-profile writers, artists and academics, put their names to the attack on a wave of Anglo-American “puritanism” following the Harvey Weinstein sex abuse scandal. They suggested the #MeToo campaign (#BalanceTonPorc – Squeal on Your Pig – in France) in which women denounced their alleged attackers had gone too far. They defended the right of men to “importune” in the name of “sexual freedom” and claimed men were being subjected to a witch-hunt.

In her letter, published in Libération, Deneuve said she had signed the statement because she opposed the “media lynching” of men accused of inappropriate behaviour and found its message “vigorous” if not “entirely right”.

“Yes, I signed that petition, however, it seems absolutely necessary today to underline my disagreement with the way certain signatories have individually assumed the right to expand upon it in the media, distorting the spirit of the text,” she wrote.

She referred to former radio presenter Brigitte Lahaie, who during a heated debate on BFMTV said women were able to “orgasm during a rape”. Without mentioning Lahaie by name, Deneuve said this was “worse than spitting in the face of those who have suffered this crime”.

“Not only do these words suggest to those who are used to using force or sexuality to destroy that it’s not so serious … but when one signs a manifesto that engages other people, one avoids dragging them into one’s own verbal incontinence. It’s unworthy. And obviously nothing in the text claims that harassment is good, otherwise I wouldn’t have signed it,” she wrote.

Reminding those who questioned her feminist credentials that she was among 343 women, including feminist writer Simone de Beauvoir, to sign a 1971 declaration admitting they had an abortion when it was still illegal, Deneueve dismissed the “conservatives, racists and traditionalists of all kinds who have found it strategic to give me their support”.

“I am not fooled,” she wrote. “They will not have my gratitude or my friendship. Quite the opposite.

“I’m a free woman and I will remain one. I fraternally salute all women victims of odious acts who might have felt assaulted by the letter in Le Monde. It is to them, and them alone, that I apologise.”
the guardian

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15-01-2018
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Belle Du Jour doesn't seem to understand. The reason she's in hot water is because of the content of the letter, not Lahaie and her views. We don't care if she eats croissants with Lahaie.
But just so we are clear, she still stand by every word on the letter, so....

Oh and "women were able to “orgasm during a rape”, wow! Most despicable untruth I've ever heard.

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Originally Posted by fashionista-ta View Post
I still haven't seen the petition itself, so I'm not sure what it says. Is it available in English? I'm quite sure my college French isn't up to the challenge
Here is a translated version of the letter....

Quote:
Full Translation Of French Anti-#MeToo Manifesto Signed By Catherine Deneuve

LE MONDE
2018-01-10

Some 100 prominent French women artists and intellectuals have issued an open letter in Le Monde condemning the movement to call out inappropriate male behavior that erupted in the wake of the Harvey Weinstein scandal.

PARIS — Rape is a crime. But trying to pick up someone, however persistently or clumsily, is not — nor is gallantry an attack of machismo.

The Harvey Weinstein scandal sparked a legitimate awakening about the sexual violence that women are subjected to, particularly in their professional lives, where some men abuse their power. This was necessary. But what was supposed to liberate voices has now been turned on its head: We are being told what is proper to say and what we must stay silent about — and the women who refuse to fall into line are considered traitors, accomplices!

Just like in the good old witch-hunt days, what we are once again witnessing here is puritanism in the name of a so-called greater good, claiming to promote the liberation and protection of women, only to enslave them to a status of eternal victim and reduce them to defenseless preys of male chauvinist demons.

Ratting out and calling out

In fact, #MeToo has led to a campaign, in the press and on social media, of public accusations and indictments against individuals who, without being given a chance to respond or defend themselves, are put in the exact same category as sex offenders. This summary justice has already had its victims: men who’ve been disciplined in the workplace, forced to resign, and so on., when their only crime was to touch a woman’s knee, try to steal a kiss, talk about "intimate" things during a work meal, or send sexually-charged messages to women who did not return their interest.

This frenzy for sending the "pigs" to the slaughterhouse, far from helping women empower themselves, actually serves the interests of the enemies of sexual freedom, the religious extremists, the reactionaries and those who believe — in their righteousness and the Victorian moral outlook that goes with it — that women are a species "apart," children with adult faces who demand to be protected.

Men, for their part, are called on to embrace their guilt and rack their brains for "inappropriate behavior" that they engaged in 10, 20 or 30 years earlier, and for which they must now repent. These public confessions, and the foray into the private sphere or self-proclaimed prosecutors, have led to a climate of totalitarian society.

This frenzy for sending the "pigs" to the slaughterhouse [...] serves the interests of the enemies of sexual freedom.

The purging wave seems to know no bounds. The poster of an Egon Schiele nude is censored; calls are made for the removal of a Balthus painting from a museum on grounds that it’s an apology for pedophilia; unable to distinguish between the man and his work, Cinémathèque Française is told not to hold a Roman Polanski retrospective and another for Jean-Claude Brisseau is blocked. A university judges the film Blow-Up, by Michelangelo Antonioni, to be "misogynist" and "unacceptable." In light of this revisionism, even John Ford (The Searchers) and Nicolas Poussin (The Abduction of the Sabine Women) are at risk.

Already, editors are asking some of us to make our masculine characters less "sexist" and more restrained in how they talk about sexuality and love, or to make it so that the "traumas experienced by female characters" be more evident! Bordering on ridiculous, in Sweden a bill was presented that calls for explicit consent before any sexual relations! Next we’ll have a smartphone app that adults who want to sleep together will have to use to check precisely which sex acts the other does or does not accept.

The essential freedom to offend

Philosopher Ruwen Ogien defended the freedom to offend as essential to artistic creation. In the same way, we defend a freedom to bother as indispensable to sexual freedom.

Today we are educated enough to understand that sexual impulses are, by nature, offensive and primitive — but we are also able to tell the difference between an awkward attempt to pick someone up and what constitutes a sexual assault.

Above all, we are aware that the human being is not a monolith: A woman can, in the same day, lead a professional team and enjoy being a man’s sexual object, without being a "whore" or a vile accomplice of the patriarchy. She can make sure that her wages are equal to a man’s but not feel forever traumatized by a man who rubs himself against her in the subway, even if that is regarded as an offense. She can even consider this act as the expression of a great sexual deprivation, or even as a non-event.

The difference between an awkward attempt to pick someone up and what constitutes a sexual assault.

As women, we don’t recognize ourselves in this feminism that, beyond the denunciation of abuses of power, takes the face of a hatred of men and sexuality. We believe that the freedom to say "no" to a sexual proposition cannot exist without the freedom to bother. And we consider that one must know how to respond to this freedom to bother in ways other than by closing ourselves off in the role of the prey.

For those of us who decided to have children, we think that it is wiser to raise our daughters in a way that they may be sufficiently informed and aware to fully live their lives without being intimidated or blamed.

Incidents that can affect a woman’s body do not necessarily affect her dignity and must not, as difficult as they can be, necessarily make her a perpetual victim. Because we are not reducible to our bodies. Our inner freedom is inviolable. And this freedom that we cherish is not without risks and responsibilities.

*The letter was co-written by five French women: Sarah Chiche (writer/psychoanalyst), Catherine Millet (author/art critic), Catherine Robbe-Grillet (actress/writer), Peggy Sastre (author/journalist) and Abnousse Shalmani (writer/journalist). It was signed by some 100 others. See the full list of signatories.
Source: Worldcrunch.com

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15-01-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benn98 View Post

Oh and "women were able to “orgasm during a rape”, wow! Most despicable untruth I've ever heard.
This is the most shameful, despicable thing I've heard in this whole long debate, and coming from a woman. Sometimes I'm just stunned by the eternal stupidity of (wo)mankind.

(I guess what follows deserves a trigger warning.)
However, I don't think it's untrue as a statement. I don't know for certain (so please do let me know if you have a differing biological etc. explanation), but I remember reading about it long before the whole #MeToo thing started. There was a long article a while back (not in English and I sadly don't remember the publication) about rape victims who feel even more ashamed of what happened because they had an orgasm during the rape. From what I remember, it doesn't seem to be that uncommon, and the explanation was that it's some sort of bodily coping mechanism to become mechanically aroused during a rape for it to cause as little physical damage as possible.

Here is another article on the subject
https://www.thenation.com/article/ho...exual-assault/


Last edited by sore; 15-01-2018 at 06:34 AM.
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15-01-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sore View Post
This is the most shameful, despicable thing I've heard in this whole long debate, and coming from a woman. Sometimes I'm just stunned by the eternal stupidity of (wo)mankind.

(I guess what follows deserves a trigger warning.)
However, I don't think it's untrue as a statement. I don't know for certain (so please do let me know if you have a differing biological etc. explanation), but I remember reading about it long before the whole #MeToo thing started. There was a long article a while back (not in English and I sadly don't remember the publication) about rape victims who feel even more ashamed of what happened because they had an orgasm during the rape. From what I remember, it doesn't seem to be that uncommon, and the explanation was that it's some sort of bodily coping mechanism to become mechanically aroused during a rape for it to cause as little physical damage as possible.

Here is another article on the subject
https://www.thenation.com/article/ho...exual-assault/
Well, you learn something new every day! I certainly never would've thought it to be true because in my experience you'd have to be exceedingly masterful to allow your body to function autonomous from the mind. But then again I'm not a woman and I've never been raped so I don't think I can say what's true and not.
I will however add that even though a court of law will never regard the issue of orgasm in a rape case, it's not a topic I feel should be held alongside a conversation trying to combat sexual violence. Not at all aimed at you, Sore, but at that wretched Layhaie woman for bringing it up.

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15-01-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sore View Post
This is the most shameful, despicable thing I've heard in this whole long debate, and coming from a woman. Sometimes I'm just stunned by the eternal stupidity of (wo)mankind.
Another signatory, Catherine Millet, also said outrageous things a few days ago. She reiterated twice that she sympathized with men who rub their genitals on women in the subway - because if they resort to such things they "must be in great sexual misery". She also said she wished she had been raped in the past just to show other women that it's not that big of a deal, that you shouldn't consider yourself as a victim for the rest of your life. She said that on national TV and radio.
People dug a bit deeper and found an interview during which she stated that "it was a good thing that now good-looking feminist women turn down and point out men who make sexual advances to them, because now those men can take an interest in older and less attractive women".

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15-01-2018
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So the only people still liking Bruce's posts are Carine and Nicolas. I love France dearly which is why I live here, but wow, what is it with the French and this attitude towards sexual predators...

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15-01-2018
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Has Vuitton come out with a statement of sorts regarding Weber? Do we even have a confirmation that he shot the spring campaign and whether they are going to continue using him? How come everyone jumped at Kors and Weitzman about Testino and everyone's keeping quiet about Louis Vuitton, who has used Weber ever since Nicolas took the helm? Are media outlets afraid of calling out Vuitton because they fear they might lose advertising money?

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15-01-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SalomeGabrielle View Post
Another signatory, Catherine Millet, also said outrageous things a few days ago. She reiterated twice that she sympathized with men who rub their genitals on women in the subway - because if they resort to such things they "must be in great sexual misery". She also said she wished she had been raped in the past just to show other women that it's not that big of a deal, that you shouldn't consider yourself as a victim for the rest of your life. She said that on national TV and radio.
People dug a bit deeper and found an interview during which she stated that "it was a good thing that now good-looking feminist women turn down and point out men who make sexual advances to them, because now those men can take an interest in older and less attractive women".
That is so wrong on so many levels. I'm lost for words . This woman must be joking.

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15-01-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SalomeGabrielle View Post
Another signatory, Catherine Millet, also said outrageous things a few days ago. She reiterated twice that she sympathized with men who rub their genitals on women in the subway - because if they resort to such things they "must be in great sexual misery". She also said she wished she had been raped in the past just to show other women that it's not that big of a deal, that you shouldn't consider yourself as a victim for the rest of your life. She said that on national TV and radio.
People dug a bit deeper and found an interview during which she stated that "it was a good thing that now good-looking feminist women turn down and point out men who make sexual advances to them, because now those men can take an interest in older and less attractive women".
Not just a signatory, she's one of the authors.

Thanks, Benn, for posting the translation, can't give you karma right now

Well, this certainly helps clarify how some women really are a part of the problem.

I don't disagree with everything in the letter, but I see nothing wrong with the Swedish consent law ... how else can it truly work if you don't have explicit consent? I haven't seen the text of the law ... if you're in a partnership it of course makes sense to have an agreement in place.

I also don't think there's any need for women to get up in arms that the potential for trauma means women are weak. This is an equal opportunity potential, and the male models speaking out right now make that abundantly clear.

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15-01-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benn98 View Post
Belle Du Jour doesn't seem to understand. The reason she's in hot water is because of the content of the letter, not Lahaie and her views. We don't care if she eats croissants with Lahaie.
But just so we are clear, she still stand by every word on the letter, so....
She was particulary criticized in the french press because she was alongside people that are not known for having the most progressive ideas.
The fact that she doesn't totally support the Metoo, Balance ton porc thing is not that much of a big deal here because a lot of people have mixed on the thing.

I mean, some of the women were invited on almost every network for the past week and they said some of the most outrageous things i've ever heard. I know that a lot of those women are supporters of the right politic party but come'on.
Since Wednesday, i've heard some of the most surrealists things ever. Catherine Millet is certainly the worst because she is saying those things in the most casual way possible and sometimes laughing when asked a serious question.

At least, with that statement, Deneuve stated clearly what bothers her in the movement.

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17-01-2018
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Quote:
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That is so wrong on so many levels. I'm lost for words . This woman must be joking.
My mother had her book and I read I long time ago, it’s trash. For a book about sex, it’s the less erotic book I ever read. Maybe because a story of woman that has been humiliated and treated like absolute dirt by men her whole life and that decides to justify her pathological neediness by claiming to be an empowered woman in control of her sexuality, does not cut it with me. I’m not surprised she said she would have liked to be raped to prove she would get over it, I’m sure a lot of sexual encounters she describes are actually rape by everyone’s standards, but for her, it becomes just another man that thinks she’s worthy of his attention. And that’s the only thing that matters and then in her logic they are then allowed to use her as they please.
Regardless, I agree she is in her right to create her own theories and be as promiscuous as she wants, but let’s not pretend that the signatories of this letter are people without an agenda. They are not concerned individuals, they are all people that a priori held unorthodox views and are defending their corner like they always did.

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17-01-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
My mother had her book and I read I long time ago, it’s trash. For a book about sex, it’s the less erotic book I ever read. Maybe because a story of woman that has been humiliated and treated like absolute dirt by men her whole life and that decides to justify her pathological neediness by claiming to be an empowered woman in control of her sexuality, does not cut it with me. I’m not surprised she said she would have liked to be raped to prove she would get over it, I’m sure a lot of sexual encounters she describes are actually rape by everyone’s standards, but for her, it becomes just another man that thinks she’s worthy of his attention. And that’s the only thing that matters and then in her logic they are then allowed to use her as they please.
Regardless, I agree she is in her right to create her own theories and be as promiscuous as she wants, but let’s not pretend that the signatories of this letter are people without an agenda. They are not concerned individuals, they are all people that a priori held unorthodox views and are defending their corner like they always did.
Ugh, I feel rather queasy reading that, but thanks LS! I don't mind if you happen have unorthodox views personally. But it takes a special kind of emotional sadist to do their best to psychologically gaslight victims like this.

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