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05-02-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eternitygoddess View Post
But you're not being impartial. You're already starting off with the assumption that Woody Allen is "an innocent man", and then providing evidence that throws doubt on Dylan Farrow's accounts.
He is an innocent man. Until the court of law finds him guilty of sexual abuse or similar crime beyond a reasonable doubt, he will remain innocent. Again, that is the foundation of our society. I can follow that principle and remain impartial on this particular case. I don't know what happened. I don't know if he committed a crime. I don't know that he hasn't. I don't know that she's lying/making it up/being coached. I don't know that she isn't. I never called her a liar. I afford her the same presumption of innocence I afford the accused. Do you?

Thank you for the article you posted, it is just the kind of current fluff I despise.
-"I think Woody Allen probably did it, though, of course, I could be wrong. But it’s okay if I’m wrong. For two reasons. First, because my opinion is not attached to a juridical apparatus... The second reason it’s okay if I’m wrong is that I’m probably not wrong."

What? How is that a justification for him being wrong? Even if his opinion directly isn't attached to a judicial apparatus, millions of like-minded opinions could potentially become. How often do you see a story about an innocent man being charged, tried, even convicted just to appease the raging public? Second, even if his and other like his opinions don't have a legal apparatus, they could ruin someone's life forever. Accusations of sexual abuse (true or false) have lasting impact on one's life. It's literally the worst crime to be accused of. Shouldn't that be a reason enough to be cautious about being wrong? That scares me. But then he's probably not wrong so it's ok. WTF? Someone published this nonesense?

Additionally, yes, it's a good thing that the accusations go through a vetting period. They should be questioned, verified, tested. These are grave accusations. Are we just expected to take every accusation that comes out at its face value and run with it? And how DARE the accused just go on with his life! What is he supposed to do? Plead his innocence? Give interviews to random schmoes about how he didn't do it? The burden is on the accuser to prove his/her case, not on the accused. The accused doesn't have to say a word, and if the accusations don't hold up, he should be free to go. Except, it appears even if that happens, we're still CONVINCED he's guilty. Because... well, he's creepy? Weird? Famous?

Again, I don't know what, if anything, happened. Neither do you. I admit that I don't. You're convinced you do. Where is this conviction coming from? You simply believe what she says. Why? Why don't you believe what he says?

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05-02-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Plain Jane View Post
I'd say anyone should read "The Daily Beast" piece though. It's illuminating.
OH REALLY?
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/c...and_her.2.html

Can we not with the rape apologists in this post??!!


Last edited by Morphe; 05-02-2014 at 02:17 PM.
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05-02-2014
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Originally Posted by scorzalite View Post
He's probably groomed her for so long. He's disgusting to a tee. Has she ever really "spoken out," not a bunch of he said, she said from his camp, but actually spoke? And every time I hear Woody Allen and his children mentioned I think of those pictures of him some years ago with his two daughters (funny how he only has daughters) and they looked absolutely disgusted themselves. I hope he hasn't done anything to them too.
untrue...

http://www.salon.com/2014/02/05/mose...s_woody_allen/

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05-02-2014
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Morphe... please note that I also said this:
Quote:
he was quite fair-minded at times, and quite biased at other times in the article.
and this:
Quote:
I guess what I found illuminating were all the things I actually didn't know that I found out in the DB article. That's why I used that word. I was under some misconceptions and the article includes a lot of details. I am able to read critically enough that I could take what I wanted from it.
- and I mentioned already that enternitygoddess raised some valid points about the article.

I read the Slate piece yesterday, but thanks for linking it. It's a strong rebuttal in some aspects; she does an interesting analysis and makes some savvy rhetorical moves.

Finally I am not sure if this is what you're saying - but I am in no way shape or form a "rape apologist"! I think we can have a conversation showing respect for each other... hopefully anyhow.

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Last edited by Not Plain Jane; 05-02-2014 at 02:32 PM.
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05-02-2014
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FYI-
all the kids with Farrow are adopted with the exception of one---
he only adopted two kids with Farrow...Dylan and Moses
the rest were kids she adopted without him...

from wikipedia- one biological child, Satchel Farrow (known as Ronan Seamus Farrow)

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05-02-2014
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i'd rather this situation wasn't being tried in public, but if you're going to start judging, i believe that you at least need to start with accurate information...

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05-02-2014
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I'd still like to clarify further re: the DB article and just give some examples of how I learned some things I didn't know about this case and beyond:

here are things I didn't know:

I didn't know Woody & Mia were never common-law because of NY law (because he never stayed at her apartment, i.e. they didnt live together).

I didn't know Mia had to approve the clips for the GG tribute. I think it would have almost been a more powerful statement for her to say "no" because it would have been a noticeable GAP in the tribute since she was in so many of his films, including some of his best films. People would've been talking...

I didn't know how intelligent Soon Yi (apparently) is

I didnt know Moses had become close with Woody; I was still under the impression that he was closer to Mia, as when the custody battle happened.

I learned all those things in the DB article. I have no idea how that makes me a "Rape Apologist". It's just one more article in a PLETHORA of articles and I have been reading almost all of them, from both sides. Some are more factually/detailed based and some are more opinion based. Some are both. I am reading it all and critically evaluating it. I thought that one was worth linking for the details it included. Obviously the author has his biases as do many writing on this issue.

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05-02-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by softgrey View Post
i'd rather this situation wasn't being tried in public, but if you're going to start judging, i believe that you at least need to start with accurate information...
Agree, on both counts.

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05-02-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by softgrey View Post
i'd rather this situation wasn't being tried in public, but if you're going to start judging, i believe that you at least need to start with accurate information...
Besides the discrepancy in who he legally was the father of, what else do you believe is inaccurate? In addition, just because Allen never signed legal documents to father most of the children does not mean he, at the very least, was not an authority figure to them.
It's inevitable for things of this nature to be tried in public especially when they relate to our sense of morals even if we look at this situation as observers.
It's disappointing to read many educated individuals belittle her message as a way of promoting her brother's new show and punish Allen's Oscar run. Such accusations are baseless considering Ronan has seen success in his professional career and this isn't the first time an Allen film has made an Oscar run since his alleged crimes.
I believe Dylan and I have to allow others to reach a different conclusion, even if it makes me question their character

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05-02-2014
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I want to say this respectfully because I don't want to come off as nasty or unkind to anyone. Nor do I want to stop people from sharing their opinions. But this is not the first time that I've heard people express their distaste for this being aired in "public." I would argue that that's the whole point of Dylan's letter. She wanted this to be public. She was sick of being silenced and shamed.

I think it's worth it to point out that this is not brand new information, by the way. Dylan has been silenced at least twice before now. I know a lot of you don't believe her and you have your reasons, but let's pretend for a moment that she isn't a vindictive little liar hellbent on destroying poor Woody Allen's career and reputation. When she first spoke up as a child, only a few family members and professionals believed her. But the overwhelming opinion was that she was lying or that her mother put it in her head so she was dismissed. She was ignored again as recently as last November when Mia and her kids gave an interview to Vanity Fair. Mia and Dylan both detail the abuse and its aftermath for almost half the article, only to be overshadowed by a brief, throwaway line about how Ronan Farrow might biologically be Frank Sinatra’s son. It’s only now that people seem to be paying attention to these allegations and yet still desperately seek to silence her.

So, this is just my own individual opinion--and I understand that many feel this is a "private" family matter: The family has been dealing with this privately for years. And in those years, Woody Allen has been lauded as a gem of the film industry, patted on the back, worshipped, adored. People wanted to enjoy his films so this was swept under the rug. Me, personally, I don't want it to go away. Ever. Because it is far more common for women (and men) to be assaulted than it is for someone to be falsely accused of assaulting someone. This is something that desperately, urgently needs to stop, and the only way we can do that, is if we talk about it and change our culture, which would rather silence its victims than protect them. And if we stop thinking about all of the potentially selfish reasons Dylan might be doing this, why isn't it just as possible that she maybe wanted to give a voice to children, adults, who have been assaulted and have not yet found the courage to speak up?

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05-02-2014
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Moses' dismissal of Dylan's accusations are not worth any more than the statements by the other siblings who do stand behind her. In fact, I believe him less. He claims that Dylan and Allen were not gone but that cannot be true because it was, that would have been the single most powerful evidence of Allen's innocence. Yet, the case was not immediately dismissed because of lack of evidence but to protect Dylan's fragile mental health. And the other siblings who were also present, even according to Moses, believe Dylan was abused. Furthermore, while Moses might not have known about or witnessed any abuse, that does not mean it did not happen. Abuse happens all the time without the family knowing about it.

I cannot say for sure that Allen is guilty because this case IS messy. It's she said, he said and everyone trying to discredit the other. However, it is not a "private matter". Because first of all, we are talking about potentially sexual abuse. That IS a public matter. Second, the victim, Dylan wants the public to discuss this. She wants people to have an opinion because these matters should not be silenced.

It's really that hard to believe that Allen is a sexual predator? Yes, Allen and Mia weren't married and didn't live together, and Soon-Yi didn't consider Allen her father since Andre Previn was her father. However, Allen came into her life when she was a child, dating her mother and she was his children's (Dylan, Moses and Ronan) sister. Then you have Allen actually admitting their marriage has a more paternal feeling to it (!!!), how he enjoys the inequality of their age difference and how that takes away any real meaningful conflict. I'm sorry but is he not saying that he enjoys how he's far more powerful in their relationship? Is an imbalance of power and control not often motivations in child sexual abuse? No, I see far too many reasons for why he very much could have sexually abused Dylan and groomed Soon-Yi. Without even factoring how statistically sexual abuse happens way more often than falsely accusing people of sexual abuse.

I'm appalled at how the public has dismissed the accusations because Mia has a "slutty" past and that somehow makes her less credible. Or how she's a bitter scorned woman trying to ruin Allen's Oscar chances. Even though, you know he's had critically acclaimed movies for years. Or how Ronan, Mia and Dylan are dredging this up to promote Ronan's new show. And Dylan isn't credible either because she's either been brainwashed by her mother or she's lying because sometimes people lie about sexual abuse. If you take away all these poor attempts at discrediting the accusations and look at Allen's questionable predilections, I know what I believe more.


Last edited by advo; 05-02-2014 at 06:34 PM.
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05-02-2014
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Originally Posted by eternitygoddess View Post
^I feel like "the public doesn't know exactly what happened" and "presumption of innocence" are just politically correct ways of siding with Allen in this case.

If Woody Allen was not an acclaimed, wealthy white director, would people be exhibiting such restraint towards Dylan Farrow's claims?
Exactly. And I interpret "innocent until proven guilty" rather literally. It entitles one to due process under law. It doesn't mean we have to protect Woody Allen's image as a public figure. Celebrities and other members of the media have fallen out of favor for less.

I suppose media outcry can sway a court case, but it works both ways, since most victims of sexual abuse or assault are afraid to speak openly. The insults to their character can be damaging, even if the perpetrator is charged. It happens all the time, where the public turns on the victim and blames them for ruining the abuser's life. Even still, there are plenty of cases where public opinion has run in opposition to a verdict. To the perpetrator, it's not necessarily damning, while it's likely to silence a victim. How many Dylan Farrows haven't spoken out? She must represent so many more women like herself, who've been afraid.

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Quote:
It's disappointing to read many educated individuals belittle her message as a way of promoting her brother's new show...
Yeah, that's a bizarre claim; how would such a thing even work as promotion?

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06-02-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickadee View Post
I want to say this respectfully because I don't want to come off as nasty or unkind to anyone. Nor do I want to stop people from sharing their opinions. But this is not the first time that I've heard people express their distaste for this being aired in "public." I would argue that that's the whole point of Dylan's letter. She wanted this to be public. She was sick of being silenced and shamed.
I agree.
What i find shocking is that people think that is perfectly natural to be of the opinion someone that claims to be sexually abused is not telling the truth, in the name of "innocent until proven guilty" not even noticing that they are in turn accusing someone of a very serious crime. False accusations are a crime can land you in jail . The innocence of the accused, or the presumed innocence, does not make the victim a liar. And that's basically the position people are taking in this story, for him to be innocent, she must be lying. And that's not at all how the law works.

Sexual abuse is a public crime and people should speak up if they have the courage and have sympathetic ears to listen, or we might end up with cases like the one of "Sir" Jimmy Saville, that only after he died it was discovered he was probably of the most prolific sexual predator in the country.

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Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
I agree.
What i find shocking is that people think that is perfectly natural to be of the opinion someone that claims to be sexually abused is not telling the truth, in the name of "innocent until proven guilty" not even noticing that they are in turn accusing someone of a very serious crime. False accusations are a crime can land you in jail . The innocence of the accused, or the presumed innocence, does not make the victim a liar. And that's basically the position people are taking in this story, for him to be innocent, she must be lying. And that's not at all how the law works.

Sexual abuse is a public crime and people should speak up if they have the courage and have sympathetic ears to listen, or we might end up with cases like the one of "Sir" Jimmy Saville, that only after he died it was discovered he was probably of the most prolific sexual predator in the country.
Absolutely. The worst thing is that the presumption of innocence argument is reserved almost exclusively for accused rapists. Has anyone noticed this? Rarely do people ride on their high horse with "innocent til proven guilty" unless it's a rape case, which is actually the worst time for it. But you didn't hear very many--if any--go 'innocent til proven guilty' with Oscar Pistorius, or O. J. Simpson. No one is cautious about passing judgment then.

In this case, the victim called out her abuser in her own words. She didn't use a lawyer or any other kind of third party; she detailed the abuse herself. So you may as well go up to Dylan and call her a liar straight to her face. There's no reasonable way even to blame Mia at this point as Dylan is a grown adult, almost thirty. Her story has not changed in twenty years. There's no reason to believe she's not telling the truth, and yet with all the creepy facts we know about Allen, people still find a way to discredit her. SMH.


Last edited by chickadee; 06-02-2014 at 10:34 AM.
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