Does that mean you are only compassionate to species which remind you of your own? How amoral...
Originally Posted by jennifer~
Well, exactly. Dolphins are pretty smart, by most accounts, and one can imagine they suffer a much higher degree of mental anguish because of this. That's pretty much the idea, anyway. Not that tuna fish don't suffer physical anguish, but well, we assume they don't suffer the same degree of mental distress.
Pain is pain. You don't need to be smart to experience pain. Any creature able to experience sensations and basic emotions will experience suffering.
Mental anguish? What do you mean? Like psychosis, scarring? That's assuming those animals have a psychic life comparable to that of humans, which we have no proof of. We don't even know if Dolphins are self-conscious (or is the word self-aware?).
If you're going to eat animals at all, don't be hypocritical about it. This sort of thing reveals so much cultural bias.
Absolutely. If you any kind of animal, you have no right to lecture other people about their diet, unless the prey in question is an endangered species.
Pigs, dogs, dolphins, tuna, bats, beef: there is absolutely no difference, imo.
A lot of people in Occident are outraged that dogs and cats are eaten in Asia but have no problem with pork living in filthy conditions and ending their lives in ham slides. Well, as it happens, pigs rank among the smartest and most sensitive domesticated animals. They also are very clean, when given the opportunity. Sadly, they are not as cute as dolphin, not as gifted as to dog when it comes to display affection, and not as elegant and useful as horses, so nobody gives a damn.
Try to fricassee a Chihuahua (daft, useless animal if there is one) and watch what will be coming your way, yet I hear no mention of the 'mental anguish' of the comparatively much smarter sheep.
Originally Posted by SomethingElse
^ Returning to a hunter/gatherer lifestyle is impossible for most people today.
I disagree. Well with the advances of agriculture and science, we are now able, for the first time in human history, to have a perfectly healthy diet that doesn't include meat of any kind. We can get all or vitamins. proteins, fats and other stuff from fruits, nuts, vegetables, leaves and artificial complements.
So theoretically, it would be possible to come back to this lifestyle, expect it would be restricted to very few.
^ Yes, that is actually what I meant, psychological trauma. That the underlying assumption seems to be thus, that those of their behaviors which compare with humans' enable people to symphathize more readily, and impose human qualities as well. Of course there's not proof... It's just a common perspective, not necessarily one I defend.
It flung up momently the sacred river.
We should all take the time to educate ourselves in other cultures before just popping in to do whatever one feels like..... But I know, those Dolphins are sure cute! Nothing lives forever! Eventually the Dolphins will die, just like so many other species...and those other species weren't even touched by humans.
Nothing lives forever???
Wow you have the answers huh... we might as well just quit living and all kill ourselves now.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Ask if anyone would hurt a dolphin, most likely answer is No! They're cute!
To be quite honest, people feel a certain affinity for dolphins because we've anthropomorphized them for quite some time; Flipper? Seaquest? Seaworld? Swimming w/them at a hotel? Helping us in the navy?
They do have amazing cognitive abilties, and I recognize that. Tuna don't.
Of course this doesn't mean animals don't feel pain because they do, and I don't go around asking to munch on a dolphin steak.
This video made me feel awful, because I love dolphins. I once saw a group of wild dolphins in the Philippines and they were so lively and cute. I am very surprised at Hayden.
People do eat weird stuff though. You have to accept that. You cannot impose your own culture's norms on another. There are plenty of other cultures that think what we eat is wrong and sacreligious or just plain weird.
I dont think anyone who hunts dolphins wants to return to a hunter gatherer lifestyle. I'm pretty sure they'd love to live out their days in luxury. There's obviously a demand for this; whether it be meat or to deter loss of catch. Edit: I think the original poster meant more of eating 'fresh' or local.
Also people don't like farmed fish because more often than not they have higher levels of heavy metals/pollutants and aren't as healthy as wild fish.
There's also definitely a different 'taste' and quality in the meat itself.
I agree this is revealing some crazy biases, Uchina. I've seen lots of anti-Asian remarks elsewhere on other sites, about how 'gross' and 'mean' they are. I think everyone would probably benefit from an anthro course on rights and cultural norms.
Last edited by lollicandy; 02-11-2007 at 03:14 AM.
I was very surprised by Hayden as well, I thought she was just another Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohan. A lot of them say they support something, show up to an event, wave and smile, but they never really DO anything.
And what got me is she really seemed sincerely distraught about the whole thing. I am so happy she raised the awareness of this, I have been protesting it for YEARS and in one day she has gotten so much attention.
Veggies are alot healthier anyway, but what do I eat to replace meat (protein)?
I have been a vegetarian for over 4 years and I have no problem with protein. I eat a lot of beans, chilli, burritos, tofu, soy products, veggies, brown rice, whole wheat, oats, and Morningstar products.
I still enjoy pretty much everything I ate as a meateater including "chicken nuggets", BLTs (with fake bacon, very real tasting), veggie burgers, etc.
Why should we protect one species just because they're more intelligent? That's like saying that we should treat a gifted child preferentially to a retarded one. Pigs have IQ levels comparable to that of dogs. Bacon is delicious. We criticize Koreans and Chinese for eating dog meat.
Frankly, I'm far more concerned about the overfishing of blue fin tuna. While certain species of whales are indeed threatened, it's not really as harsh on the environment as many, many other things that we do. If you want to talk about true hypocrisy, how about the damage we do in the west? The Japanese are very economical and careful about the environment. Their ecological footprints are small. Should I even mention the Kyoto Protocol? Alright, if you want to stick strictly to animal rights, what about factory farming? Have you read Fast Food Nation?
I'm not criticizing Hayden. She's a sweet, conscientious girl who wants to do something about the world. Bless her naive heart. I do feel for the fisherman. If I were him, I would be furious as well.
One thing you have to remember though, the reason that Japan (for example) has a minimized carbon footprint is that they don't produce their own meat or dairy. They have a few very small farms which produce very expensive meat for the elite, but unlike a country such as the UK, US or New Zealand, they just don't have that issue. If they were forced to stop imports of meat and dairy and produce their own, they'd really struggle.
Another thing about Japan is they have the highest chicken-stacking tier height in the developed world. I believe it's 18 crates high. That's for egg producing. I think it's limited to 3 in many other countries.
Japan has also overfished tuna to the tune of 2 billion dollars.
How can we say Hayden is naive? How can we belittle the cause she is supporting because we think she finds dolphins "cute"?
Would it have pleased more people if she would be fighting for whales or tuna? Probably, but then again, defending something we love shouldn't be about pleasing people, but believing we are doing the right thing.
She is trying to make a difference, however small or big it may be, but she is definitely trying. Unlike so many people who are quick to criticise, but slow to act. I am not flamming anyone here, and i am not trying to offend anyone.
But if you see a thread about someone trying to make a difference, whatever difference, and so many people are so quick to put her down for whatever reasons, than somehow you do get a bit uptight about the whole thing.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger..
I love dolphins, they are one of my favorite animals, and it saddens me that people kill them as they do, but being respectful of other people's cultures is important too. Although I am part-Japanese, I am not aware of any cultural tradition concerning dolphins, but I grew up in the U.S. so I might have overlooked it.
There are many instances where we make exceptions for rules and laws in order to preserve traditions. (this will be kind of blunt, but I'm not trying to offend anyone. I love the dolphins too!!!)
Anyone heard of shark fin soup? It basically equals slicing off sharks' fins and tossing the rest of the shark back into the ocean and leaving them to die. A cultural dish, but pretty accepted and popular. I don't see the PETA staking out all the Chinese restaurants in America for this cause. At least the dolphins aren't being completely wasted...
We allow Native American and Inuit tribes to hunt whales and other animals as part of their cultural traditions.
Spain and Mexico have bullfights (are they being eaten? I don't know).
There are probably plenty of other exceptions, but if we make allowances for some cultures and traditions, we can't rule out others. We can't pick and choose who gets to go on with what. It doesn't work that way. It's all or nothing. I hate to see animals being killed, but it's just reality... In India, the cow is sacred- how many do we kill each day all over the world? And it's not even some long-lasting important ritual/tradition. We just like the taste of beef.
In india the cow isn't sacred...that's a western myth. It used to be but now cruelty to cows is worse in India than it is anywhere else in the world, without even proper slaughter regulations. India also produces $5 billion worth of leather each year in exports.
Look, I'm not knocking Hayden for actually going out there and doing something. All I'm saying is, it's easier to take it more seriously if the person has expressed distaste over the treatment of animals before - instead of heading straight towards the cute friendly dolphins. Do you see what I'm getting at? It's possible that yes, she will continue with this cause for the rest of her life and maybe achieve something, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if she gave up this cause in a month or two, just like everybody else who has pledged to help dogs and cats while wearing fur coats, or pledged to save the whales while eating tuna.