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02-09-2011
  16
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mononym's Avatar
 
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who cares what gaga thinks?

tavi was a flavor of the moment, ms. horyn will be here forever.


Last edited by mononym; 02-09-2011 at 03:36 AM.
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02-09-2011
  17
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Honestly, I do think it's funny that Lady Gaga would rather criticise a fashion critic for, well, criticising things than tell off the writers of the endless puff pieces that seem to constitute most of the word count of articles in mainstream fashion magazines.

It's also ironic, considering that Ms Horyn is literally the only mainstream fashion writer I've ever seen who acknowledges the contributions of her individual blog commenters to the discussions on her NYT blog - something I have never seen any other media do, and makes Cathy one of the more forward-thinking critics out there. Would Gaga be as likely to talk about what a brilliant but otherwise unknown Slovenian art history student (Marko, for anyone who reads the comments on OTR) has to say, as opposed to the teenager whose story has been covered by every news outlet in existence?* Yeah, I didn't think so either.


*no offence, her blog is lovely but people do mostly know about it because of the hype around her age, and seem to use it as the go-to-answer/solution to any perceived problems with the state of fashion commentary today.

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02-09-2011
  18
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']As a person who emphasizes importance of research Gaga should know that a good researcher also does referencing not just copying the way she does. Most of her work is a copy… it is beyond obnoxious of her to claim that everything she wears or does is a pure art… and as a person who claims to be such an amazing artist she should be nothing but prepared even for harsh criticism. [/FONT]

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02-09-2011
  19
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^^ yes to the tiny part of your post. You know that year when the Misshapes/cobrasnake emerged and there was this girl at an unbelievable age taking center stage in the whole thing (Cory, yes), well, whatever happened to her? .. and she did have a blog since then and everyone would visit it and she was getting invited to Paris shows. Of course she was not eloquent, there was no need for it in 2007, it was all about drunken typing.
Call me back when Tavi is 19 and suddenly we're just left with her writings, no unsettling age to associate them with and the ghost of a hasbeen.


Gaga's article is just so rude and extremely second-hand embarrassment inducing. She reminds me of a group of goths back in high school that didn't talk to anyone because they thought everyone cared enough to hate them, and were resentful to teachers, and suddenly one day they experienced an outburst and it just happened to be against the only 'cool' teacher that everyone loved. So embarrassing .

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02-09-2011
  20
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The other thing, too, is that Tavi and most bloggers only have their opinions. Unlike Cathy and other fashion journs, they aren't big on getting opinions and facts to back up certain assertions or to support them. That's what it's like with this blog culture we're in.

But that is not journalism.

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02-09-2011
  21
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The irony of the whole thing is Gaga is writing a fashion column criticizing someone for criticizing fashion.

Basically faulting Horyn for everything she is doing herself, right here.

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02-09-2011
  22
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The probablem is that Cathy Horyn unfairly criticized Gaga for wearing Versace just because Donatella said she was honored to dress Gaga. What was wrong with that? Gaga is arguably the most sought after entertainer at the moment and has been named the most powerful celebrity and the 11th most powerful woman in the world by Forbes. Any designer would be honored to dress Gaga considering Gaga wore Versace during the whole duration of her The Edge Of Glory promotion which lasted 3 long months.

Cathy Horyn was just being oh so pretentious and obnoxious about the whole situation.

Unfortunately Gaga is also being pretentious about the situation. I guess she couldn't find the best words to say about it since she is coming off as bitter, but she has every right to be when she did nothing wrong during CFDA yet Cathy Horyn felt the need to judge her just because Donatella was honored? Pfft.

I've never been a fan of Cathy Horyn. She sometimes comes across as unprofessional and tactless to me, and this unfortunately is one of those times.

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02-09-2011
  23
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replace unprofessional and tactless with honest and uncompromising,leeroi,and you'd be much closer to how cathy horyn really is. she's actually one of the very few remaining voices in our industry who doesn't follow or shall i say bite at the heels of this year's flavour. somebody poked gaga's ego and gaga doesn't like it.....big whoop.

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02-09-2011
  24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
replace unprofessional and tactless with honest and uncompromising,leeroi,and you'd be much closer to how cathy horyn really is. she's actually one of the very few remaining voices in our industry who doesn't follow or shall i say bite at the heels of this year's flavour. somebody poked gaga's ego and gaga doesn't like it.....big whoop.
It all depends honestly. I agree with Cathy Horyn about certain things she say, especially when it comes to her criticism against Wintour, but often she comes off as critical just for the sake of being critical. What exactly was wrong with Donatella opening the Versace archives for Gaga? Nothing.

Cathy Horyn's criticism of her about Versace is no better or worse than a random girl from tumblr saying "ewww gaga wearing versace! she should just stick to wearing her tacky mugler dress! why would donatella even bother!" considering the circumstances, if there was any circumstance to begin with.

But of course Gaga does sound bitter as I stated.


Last edited by Leeroi; 02-09-2011 at 05:35 PM.
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02-09-2011
  25
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While Gaga's criticism towards Cathy was due to her writing out her view of Gaga's TEOG video with absolutely no merit, her words go far beyond Cathy.

The last instance was not the first time that Cathy has targeted Gaga, granted when she wrote her review of 'Alejandro' that was laced with backhanded compliments, she did not go on twitter and announce that she was no longer going to follow Gaga.

For all of Cathy's expertise about fashion, she reduced her words to that of any one of Gaga's detractors who make negative baseless comments and try to pass them off as a critique. That is where Gaga's criticism comes from.

It's unfortunate that many feel that critics should be able to criticize but they themselves should be immune to
any and all criticism and if or when one dares to speak up for themself and question what makes this critic's opinion more important than anyone else, as Gaga has done, they are deemed butt hurt et cetera.

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02-09-2011
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@Librek_Skye18
I honestly don't see how following Gaga on twitter was even relevant to the topic she was discussing. Seemed like Cathy, like I said, just being critical just for the sake of being critical.

They're both obnoxious in this situation.

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03-09-2011
  27
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I went through her manifesto and made an outline of her points:

Paragraph 01 - She attacks critics for being consistently negative: focusing
more on the craftsmanship (intellectualism) rather than experience (feeling)
of the work. Then she reverses her position to make a requirement that critics
should first research and analyze a work so as to be insightful and not hurtful.
Flaw: She can't accept that some people do not share her emotional experience.

Paragraph 02 - She proposes the term 'Extreme Critic Fundamentalism' which
if anything, is meant to debase the whole art of criticism - and an art it is!
She furthers her argument that she wants reasons (scientific, mathematical,
and pertinent information) why her Titanic failed and other cruise ships
were successful - a bold affirmation of overblown ego madness.
Flaw: She condemns tastemakers while writing her own essay on proper taste.

Paragraph 03 - After establishing her wish to see objective criticism, she
goes back to her original metaphysical position with; soul, transcendence,
out-of-body, claiming a critic may not be in-touch with this faculty of sense.
Flaw: She forgot that a professional critic must use 'reasoned' judgement.

Paragraph 04 - She calls for a more modern approach to criticism, but is far
from clear on what it means. It seems like every sentence contradicts the one
previous. She is both for and against amateur journalism or more accurately
to her point, she wants Horyn to be more like a blog writer, in order to
separate herself from the common everywoman blog writer.
Flaw: She is for the modern approach only if it suits her, since this attack
stemmed from an emotionally-style critique, typical of blogging.


Paragraph 05 - She poses a jumble of rhetorical questions and calls for
the end of hierarchy or position.
Flaw: She condemns the privilege she abused when writing her opinion as a public declaration.

Conclusion: It didn't address Cathy but rather moved through her to
a much more universal critique of the art-critic and in that it was not well
argued. But it sounds high-minded and lofty. This has always been her
problem, she is too superficial and focused on appearance - the emotion of a
thing and not its substance which is what makes a real artist and what a real
critic praises.

Thanks for reading.

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03-09-2011
  28
V.I.P.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libra Skye18 View Post
While Gaga's criticism towards Cathy was due to her writing out her view of Gaga's TEOG video with absolutely no merit, her words go far beyond Cathy.

The last instance was not the first time that Cathy has targeted Gaga, granted when she wrote her review of 'Alejandro' that was laced with backhanded compliments, she did not go on twitter and announce that she was no longer going to follow Gaga.

For all of Cathy's expertise about fashion, she reduced her words to that of any one of Gaga's detractors who make negative baseless comments and try to pass them off as a critique. That is where Gaga's criticism comes from.

It's unfortunate that many feel that critics should be able to criticize but they themselves should be immune to
any and all criticism and if or when one dares to speak up for themself and question what makes this critic's opinion more important than anyone else, as Gaga has done, they are deemed butt hurt et cetera.
But what Gaga is doing unlike Cathy is giving a valid reason for why Cathy's writing is considered wrong. In journalism you write without emotion and everything you state must be supported. It isn't about putting your feelings into it, but creating something that is valid and understandable to the mass. I don't understand why unfollowing was just so terrible. And just like you said you don't know why people can't take criticism, look at Gaga... who is allowing words of Cathy to cause her to write a whole column on her


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata View Post
I went through her manifesto and made an outline of her points:

Paragraph 01 - She attacks critics for being consistently negative: focusing
more on the craftsmanship (intellectualism) rather than experience (feeling)
of the work. Then she reverses her position to make a requirement that critics
should first research and analyze a work so as to be insightful and not hurtful.
Flaw: She can't accept that some people do not share her emotional experience.

Paragraph 02 - She proposes the term 'Extreme Critic Fundamentalism' which
if anything, is meant to debase the whole art of criticism - and an art it is!
She furthers her argument that she wants reasons (scientific, mathematical,
and pertinent information) why her Titanic failed and other cruise ships
were successful - a bold affirmation of overblown ego madness.
Flaw: She condemns tastemakers while writing her own essay on proper taste.

Paragraph 03 - After establishing her wish to see objective criticism, she
goes back to her original metaphysical position with; soul, transcendence,
out-of-body, claiming a critic may not be in-touch with this faculty of sense.
Flaw: She forgot that a professional critic must use 'reasoned' judgement.

Paragraph 04 - She calls for a more modern approach to criticism, but is far
from clear on what it means. It seems like every sentence contradicts the one
previous. She is both for and against amateur journalism or more accurately
to her point, she wants Horyn to be more like a blog writer, in order to
separate herself from the common everywoman blog writer.
Flaw: She is for the modern approach only if it suits her, since this attack
stemmed from an emotionally-style critique, typical of blogging.


Paragraph 05 - She poses a jumble of rhetorical questions and calls for
the end of hierarchy or position.
Flaw: She condemns the privilege she abused when writing her opinion as a public declaration.

Conclusion: It didn't address Cathy but rather moved through her to
a much more universal critique of the art-critic and in that it was not well
argued. But it sounds high-minded and lofty. This has always been her
problem, she is too superficial and focused on appearance - the emotion of a
thing and not its substance which is what makes a real artist and what a real
critic praises.

Thanks for reading.
perfect post

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03-09-2011
  29
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@TREVOFASHIONISTO
But Cathy never supported her criticism towards Gaga or Donatella. She just outright condemned the fact Gaga wore Versace and that Donatella was honored? Like I said, what exactly was wrong with that? Is it wrong because Gaga is "new" and that "new" artists shouldn't be given honor to when it comes to dressing, albeit it gives the house of Versace massive promotion?

Cathy and Gaga are both obnoxious in this situation. No amount of expertise gives Cathy the privilege to criticize someone without reason, same to Gaga.

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04-09-2011
  30
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Toccata, you nailed it , I wish that would go in a column

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