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03-12-2017
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Originally Posted by xoxoadore View Post
wow but is it really THAT hard for y'all to not sing ONE WORD in a song? seriously? does it stop you from liking the song? that's all they ask you can sing the song but just don't say ONE word as easy as that tbh
Why should people stop singing that particular word in a song by a black artist? The artist decided the word was right in that particular context, he/she is taking possession of it and putting out there for everyone to sing. You have the choice not to be a fan of any artist that uses that word, and to take the fight directly to them, but you have no right to demand people to censor any word if you clearly have no problem with the artist to start with. I would understand your position ( although i would not agree with it) if you said “Look VS are models are singing a song from a an artist that uses a very offensive word and by singing that song they are condoning the use of it” but you cannot just expect fans just to eliminate a word and then decide a song or an artist is now acceptable. You would not have that attitude if it was a white supremacist band they were supporting. You cannot have it both ways.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
Why should people stop singing that particular word in a song by a black artist? The artist decided the word was right in that particular context, he/she is taking possession of it and putting out there for everyone to sing. You have the choice not to be a fan of any artist that uses that word, and to take the fight directly to them, but you have no right to demand people to censor any word if you clearly have no problem with the artist to start with. I would understand your position ( although i would not agree with it) if you said “Look VS are models are singing a song from a an artist that uses a very offensive word and by singing that song they are condoning the use of it” but you cannot just expect fans just to eliminate a word and then decide a song or an artist is now acceptable. You would not have that attitude if it was a white supremacist band they were supporting. You cannot have it both ways.
maybe because white supremacist haven't been oppressed and black people have?!? how about the fact that that particular word goes back to slavery and has a very heavy historical connotation when white people use it. BLACK people are the only ones that can appropriate it. How dare you, honestly, compare it to a white supremacist band? White people have gone through NOTHING compared to other minority groups and ESPECIALLY not compared to black people

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I want to try to do a small summary of the issue, as I see it, because I want to make sure my position on the matter is not misunderstood. Things on the internet don't go away, after all.

The way I see it, there are 2 main issues(, assuming we decide it is okay that black people can decide that a word should not be used):

To what extent can one black person give consent to white people to use the word? Ie. Can a white person call a black person the N-word as a term of endearment, if that black person is his best friend and he has encouraged it? Can a white 4 year old child star who loves Kanye sing the N-word (or do we try to get her fired?)? What if she was 14? Can a black musician hire a white lyric-writer and allow him/her to sing the N-word while making the song? What if he had a large white crew of songwriters? If we allow that, then we are in principle not that far away from an artist allowing large numbers of white fans sing it. Kanye supposedly once held the microphone out to a group of white fans, and they sang the N-word. OR: should black people not have the right to give this consent at all?

Who are considered black enough to say it or give such consent? Do you need a certain % of certain genetics? Most people are mixed to some extent. Or should it be limited to people who look black? What if you look black, but never faced racism and grew up in a white, privileged neighbourhood? What if you are of mixed race? Could Obama use the word or allow other people to do so? Could Meghan Markle use the N-word? Will her children with Prince Harry be allowed to?

==> My overall point: the issue is not as simple as telling people to not use a word.

There is no clear consensus on these issues. When you have unclear rules, it is not easy to follow them. In my opinion, this needs to be taken into consideration when we see people use the N-word (as well as the fact that humans make errors in general).

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Last edited by eizhowa; 03-12-2017 at 02:31 PM.
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From Frederik Ruegger's Instagram story.

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^ Oh my God... He is despicable.

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Boyce shouldn't be bothered what some provincial German riff-raff think of him. This cretin could do well to further his delusions as a 'skater' (how original ) instead of running his mouth about issues which is way above his kindergarten stunted intellectual capacity.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoadore View Post
maybe because white supremacist haven't been oppressed and black people have?!? how about the fact that that particular word goes back to slavery and has a very heavy historical connotation when white people use it. BLACK people are the only ones that can appropriate it. How dare you, honestly, compare it to a white supremacist band? White people have gone through NOTHING compared to other minority groups and ESPECIALLY not compared to black people
Did i said anything in contrary?
I believe Black people have the right to decide when what context the word can be used. If you put a song out there with the word you are ALLOWING EVERYONE to sing the song, so you cannot accuse anyone of being racist when by singing it you are merely reproducing their words, unless of course you are willing to call the artist itself racist. First you say the black artist has the right to take possession of the word and then at the same time certain sections of the fandom have to censor words that the artist thought appropriate in that particular context. it’s totally nonsensical. Again you simply cannot have it both ways.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoadore View Post
maybe because white supremacist haven't been oppressed and black people have?!? how about the fact that that particular word goes back to slavery and has a very heavy historical connotation when white people use it. BLACK people are the only ones that can appropriate it. How dare you, honestly, compare it to a white supremacist band? White people have gone through NOTHING compared to other minority groups and ESPECIALLY not compared to black people
I think you're missing the point Les_Sucettes is making though.

No one is doubting the validity of your point that minorities, including black people in the US, have gone through hell.

What you're missing is the fact that if the word's meaning is so awful that non-African American people should never use it then neither should African American people. The N word has such deep historical racism attached to it that there is NOTHING redeeming about it regardless of who uses it.

The best example I can use from an international perspective is the K word in Southern Africa. Absolutely NO black person in South Africa would use that word even in a joking and endearing way or in a rap song. The only people who use the K word are actual blatant South African racists. The N word should be treated exactly the same for ALL people. However, in US culture it's not...it's meaning has evolved for many to not be related to racism.

Using your own point against you, it shouldn't be hard for African American rappers to NOT USE the N word in their music in that case rather than normalising it for everyone else.

So to bring this back to the story at hand, if a model said the N word in a derogatory way then absolutely they should be fired. Imagine if Candice said the K word...all hell would absolutely break loose and so it should. That word is nothing but filth and I experienced it first hand seeing the way some Afrikaaners spoke to black South Africans in rural South Africa...there is no doubt it's a disgusting word. But for the N word, saying it because it's the lyrics to a popular song...well what else do you expect them to do? I know Eminem uses the term 'gay' a lot in his lyrics but if I heard straight guys saying it when singing the lyrics I couldn't care less.

Eminem uses that term in a lot of his songs a - do you reckon if a model sang that she'd be labelled homophobic? Imagine being homophobic in a the fashion community...the only model I can think of who MAY BE considered homophobic is Isabeli Fontana after her remarks about her son and even that is pushing it.

Also just remember what Kanye sang at the VSFS 2011 too...if these rap artists keep normalising the word in their lyrics then you can't expect people to self-censor nor should they...

Gosh, can't believe this discussion is still happening in 2017...

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Originally Posted by billiejbob View Post
I think you're missing the point Les_Sucettes is making though.

No one is doubting the validity of your point that minorities, including black people in the US, have gone through hell.

What you're missing is the fact that if the word's meaning is so awful that non-African American people should never use it then neither should African American people. The N word has such deep historical racism attached to it that there is NOTHING redeeming about it regardless of who uses it.

The best example I can use from an international perspective is the K word in Southern Africa. Absolutely NO black person in South Africa would use that word even in a joking and endearing way or in a rap song. The only people who use the K word are actual blatant South African racists. The N word should be treated exactly the same for ALL people. However, in US culture it's not...it's meaning has evolved for many to not be related to racism.

Using your own point against you, it shouldn't be hard for African American rappers to NOT USE the N word in their music in that case rather than normalising it for everyone else.

So to bring this back to the story at hand, if a model said the N word in a derogatory way then absolutely they should be fired. Imagine if Candice said the K word...all hell would absolutely break loose and so it should. That word is nothing but filth and I experienced it first hand seeing the way some Afrikaaners spoke to black South Africans in rural South Africa...there is no doubt it's a disgusting word. But for the N word, saying it because it's the lyrics to a popular song...well what else do you expect them to do? I know Eminem uses the term 'gay' a lot in his lyrics but if I heard straight guys saying it when singing the lyrics I couldn't care less.

Eminem uses that term in a lot of his songs a - do you reckon if a model sang that she'd be labelled homophobic? Imagine being homophobic in a the fashion community...the only model I can think of who MAY BE considered homophobic is Isabeli Fontana after her remarks about her son and even that is pushing it.

Also just remember what Kanye sang at the VSFS 2011 too...if these rap artists keep normalising the word in their lyrics then you can't expect people to self-censor nor should they...

Gosh, can't believe this discussion is still happening in 2017...
Exactly! You simply cannot separate the artist from it’s fandom, that was my point when i said you wouldn’t do that with white Supremacist bands( it had nothing to do with them using the word or not, but alas...), or you endorse the black artist and agree that it’s ok for them to use the word in that particular context, and then everyone will be allowed to reproduce those same words, or you simply disagree with the artist and by extension the fandom. What you simply cannot do is police who can and who cannot sing a perfectly legal song.
You cannot have your cake and eat it.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
If you put a song out there with the word you are ALLOWING EVERYONE to sing the song
Music is about self-expression, why wouldn't black artists use a word that's part of their daily vocabulary? That doesn't mean they are trying to make it commercial or want non black people to sing it. And anyway, why would a anyone want to use a word that your own people have used to degrade others not even that long ago? If black people want to reclaim it that's their choice, but I don't get why everyone's so bothered about not being able to say it, it's a nasty word.

In other news, Romee Strijd very gracefully answered a comment about this on insta and said she didn't really know what the word meant and now that she does she'll definitely never use it again. It's literally that easy.

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Originally Posted by boleyns View Post
Music is about self-expression, why wouldn't black artists use a word that's part of their daily vocabulary? That doesn't mean they are trying to make it commercial or want non black people to sing it. And anyway, why would a anyone want to use a word that your own people have used to degrade others not even that long ago? If black people want to reclaim it that's their choice, but I don't get why everyone's so bothered about not being able to say it, it's a nasty word.

In other news, Romee Strijd very gracefully answered a comment about this on insta and said she didn't really know what the word meant and now that she does she'll definitely never use it again. It's literally that easy.
I’m sorry are you actually trying to imply black artists only make music for black people and that they do not want it to reach as people as they can and earn as much money as they can, just like any other other artist? 😁 You think this particular artist stumbled into a distributor and happened to sell millions of songs?😄I’m sorry but I feel that I fell into a rabit hole.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Sucettes View Post
I see absolutely no conflict between black people being able to take possession of the word and use it the way they please and white people being “barred” from using it.

What I find absolutely and totally ridiculous is being called “racist” because you are singing a song by a black artist. The word is not illegal, black artists, like all artists, expect to reach all sorts of people, if they think it’s right for people to use the word in the context of the song it’s their decision, if people have an issue with it, the onus should be on the artist that is singing the song( who wrote it is immaterial) not the fan.
I agree. And there are many other examples of the same thing. B!tch is a similar instance, where women sometimes use the word in a de-fanged manner. I find men using the word smacks of misogyny no matter what.

'Nasty woman' T-shirts and hats and buttons, same thing ...

Bottom line, you can't tell people what to do with a term that's been used to marginalize them. They can take ownership of it and do whatever they want with it, just that simple.

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Originally Posted by fashionista-ta View Post

Bottom line, you can't tell people what to do with a term that's been used to marginalize them. They can take ownership of it and do whatever they want with it, just that simple.
I think it's the other way around...it's those same people who are telling others that they can't use the word...while they can.

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^ And if so, what's wrong with that? I sense the opinion of someone with insufficient experience being marginalized here ...

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Oh f*** off, Ruegger. Go back to your miserable and empty "insta-life" and leave the serious matters to mature individuals.

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