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11-07-2007
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^ No, and I'm sure it's lovely and all but in the grand scheme of our entire human history, it is neither the first nor the last big, religious statue. Compared to Angkor Wat it's pretty insignificant.

And Brazil has some amazing natural landmarks, I'm sure they wouldn't cry if CTR wasn't on the list :p

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11-07-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomethingElse
Perhaps the list could have attended to the wonders that Nature has created, instead of structures made by people. The Himalayas, Antarctica, the Great Barrier Reef, the Asian Steppes, the Sahara, the Amazon, the Nile. The sun, the stars, the earth, water, life, flowers, wind. 'Nuf said.
There are many variations of a Seven Natural Wonders of the World list, but no "official" one as of yet.

Better yet, how about a Seven Wonders of the Solar System list?

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12-07-2007
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Originally Posted by misssakura View Post
So we'd only have bridges and the empire state building..maybe the tour d'eiffel...although those workers weren't exactly treated that brilliantly either.
There are more buildings than just the empire state building and the eiffel tower that have not been built by slaves. It's the principle of taking into account the function and construction of the thing that matters. It's just tough if the wonders of the ancient world have to be excluded.

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12-07-2007
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I don’t expect everybody to be educated and to know history well. So I will help you with showing you some sites where you can read about history and get the facts straight. (none of these sites is wikipedia)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceOfCats View Post
Athens 'invented' the word democracy: several democracies had existed before Athenian democracy.
I don't think i have to say anything it's well known democracy was created in Ancient Greece. Here are some links:

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ac42
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/greeks/greekdemocracy_01.shtml

and here’s a book if you want to learn…
http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10465.html

Quote:
The medical treatise of the last centuries, which formed 'medicine', were written in Latin, as a lingua franca: Medical science owes a lot more to them than to Hippocrates.
Yes that's why the father of medicine (wordwide known) is Hippocrates (yes it's a greek name and you don't call someone father of medicine just because) and every term is greek. Mind you, this greek words (terms) are being used EVERYWHERE in the world.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10122a.htm
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/greek/index.html

Quote:
Every ancient civilization wrote 'philosophy', Western culture happens to value Greek philosophy above others.
Greek philosophy is the most respected and important because the Greeks were the first who went past the "how the world is created" and dedicated their lifes in how to look at life in a bigger sense.

This will help you understand:

http://www.friesian.com/greek.htm#why
http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/index.htm
http://www.radicalacademy.com/diahistphil.htm

Quote:
The Middle East, actually.
"The rise of modern science in Europe, from the ancient Greeks to Isaac Newton. Other cultures were also quite interested and skilled in astronomy (the Mayans (link will display in another window), Egyptians, peoples of India and China come immediately to mind), but the Greeks were the first ones to try to explain how the universe worked in a logical, systematic manner using models and observations. Modern astronomy (and all of science) has its roots in the Greek tradition."

About math: All the basic theorems that you learn when you go to high school were written by Archimedes, Aristotle, Euclid, Thales, Pythagoras (yes they were all greek)

http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/52508.html
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9109383/Archimedes
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02025a.htm
http://www.astronomynotes.com/history/s1.htm

Quote:
The Greek Olympics haven't existed for over a thousand years. The modern Olympics were set up in France.
First of all what you are saying doesn't make sense. Greeks UNDENIABLY created the olympic games and has nothing to do with who started them again after the years. But either way the Greeks started the olympics again, not the french (Athens 1896) Check the OFFICIAL site...

http://www.olympic.org/uk/games/index_uk.asp


Quote:
You should maybe think about how you might be a little biased...
biased? no, educated? yes.

Even if you don’t know just use your logic. When most terms in medicine are greek, when democracy and philosophy are greek words, how is it possible to derive from another civilisation? Don’t you think that if they were created in China they would have a chinese name? It’s common sense.

What I fail to understand is how both of you without knowing what you are talking about you tried to correct me (and always use proof, not because "i say so"). Let’s hope now that you know..

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Last edited by FashionJunkie; 12-07-2007 at 10:02 AM.
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12-07-2007
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I respect your ability to back up your arguement with sources, but you've already diverted from your original assertations! You've said:
Quote:
- They invented democracy
- Everything in medicin is in greek (every word), father of Medicine is Hippocrates
- When people tried to survive, they were writing philosophy
- When people used to kill each other, they created masterpieces
- Math, Astronomy all started from ancient Greece
- They created the Olympics, which is not just a competition, it's the global union and the promotion of the healthy and friendly competition (eugenis amilla)that spurs a person to improve his own performance.

They were the best civilization and no one will ever take their place.
If you had said that they developed ideas from previous civilizations as opposed to INVENTING all of these things, your arguement would've made sense. We said that they didn't invent medicine and all of medicine isn't Greek, yet you supplied us with links that just reminded us, once more, about the GREEK aspects of medicine. You provided no rebuttal to what we said. Egyptians used papyri to classify diseases according to syptoms. Indians understood the spinal cord's significance, and used surgical procedures similar to bone setting and plastic surgery. They also developed incoluation, which served as a smallpox vaccine. Westerners didn't know of a smallpox vaccine until the end of the 1700s. Also, Indians used cleanliness and disinfection before operating.

You originally said that they were "writing philosophy", yet we both said that others wrote philosophy before the Greeks. I never challenged that Greek philosophy was the most respected, however, yet you provided links that justify that--why? Whatever happened to backing up your original ascertation that Greeks wrote philosophy before others?

Science-wise, the Chinese were the first to determine that a year was exactly 365 1/4 days. They also were the first to observe sunspots--something that the Europeans didn't do until the 1600s CE. The Egyptians invented a lunar calendar. Indian astronomers identified the seven planets that can be seen without the aid of a telescope. They also accurately predicted eclipses of the Sun and Moon, as well as understanding of the Earth's daily rotation.

Also, it's not as if Greece invented all of math, as you said! They developed many important and significant parts of geometry and other things, yet they didn't develop ALL of it, as you originally said! I hope you've heard of Aryabhata--he was one of the first people known to have used algebra and solve quadratic equations. Indians knew about abstract and negative numbers. They also invented ARABIC numerals, which is obviously used extensively. Also, Egyptians invented a number system based on 10 (similar to decimals today), and they also used fractions and whole numbers. Sumerians divided a circle into 360 degrees, as well as proposing a number system based on 60. That's what we use today in watches and compasses.

Global union, huh? That's why only Ancient Greeks allowed Greeks to attend.

I'm not trying to demean Greece. We owe so much to each and every one of these civilizations, so saying that one was more important than the other is essentially pointless. There are a lot of great things about these civilizations that make them equally important. India and Mesopotamia's religions still exist today (Hinduism/Buddhism and Judaism, respectively), even if those of Greece and Egypt don't. However, Greece and Egypt were incredibly important in SO many other aspects. No civilization is better than the other--that's where you went wrong!

(Any information I've provided can be sourced by "World History: People and Nations, Ancient World" by Holt, Rineheart, and Winston, as well as http://www.imageofsurgery.com/Surgery_history_art.htm)


Last edited by FashionCapital; 12-07-2007 at 12:02 PM.
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12-07-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FashionCapital View Post
I respect your ability to back up your arguement with sources, but you've already diverted from your original assertations!
What are you saying doesn't make any sense. What i said in my first post i explained in the second.

Quote:
If you had said that they developed ideas from previous civilizations as opposed to INVENTING all of these things, your arguement would've made sense. We said that they didn't invent medicine and all of medicine isn't Greek, yet you supplied us with links that just reminded us, once more, about the GREEK aspects of medicine. You provided no rebuttal to what we said. Egyptians used papyri to classify diseases according to syptoms. Indians understood the spinal cord's significance, and used surgical procedures similar to bone setting and plastic surgery. They also developed incoluation, which served as a smallpox vaccine. Westerners didn't know of a smallpox vaccine until the end of the 1700s. Also, Indians used cleanliness and disinfection before operating.
I never said all of medicine is Greek, i said that the terms, words are in greek (prognosis, diagnosis, stenosis, skoliosis, pneumonia, poliomuelitis, orthopedic, pathology, hydropneumothorax, tachycardia etc). That doesn't mean that all medicine is Greek. That's your assumption. But doesn't mean anything to you that even though only in greece they speak greek they use these terms all over the world?
Quote:
You originally said that they were "writing philosophy", yet we both said that others wrote philosophy before the Greeks. I never challenged that Greek philosophy was the most respected, however, yet you provided links that justify that--why? Whatever happened to backing up your original ascertation that Greeks wrote philosophy before others?

About philosophy read my post again. Greek philosophy stands out because Greeks were the first who went past the "how the world is created" and dedicated their lifes in how to look at life in a bigger sense. That's what philosophy is. The way of thinking, the values of life, the morals. The philosophy others wrote was what the world is. Which is not philosophy. Can't you see the difference?

Quote:
Science-wise, the Chinese were the first to determine that a year was exactly 365 1/4 days. They also were the first to observe sunspots--something that the Europeans didn't do until the 1600s CE. The Egyptians invented a lunar calendar. Indian astronomers identified the seven planets that can be seen without the aid of a telescope. They also accurately predicted eclipses of the Sun and Moon, as well as understanding of the Earth's daily rotation. Also, it's not as if Greece invented all of math, as you said! They developed many important and significant parts of geometry and other things, yet they didn't develop ALL of it, as you originally said! I hope you've heard of Aryabhata--he was one of the first people known to have used algebra and solve quadratic equations. Indians knew about abstract and negative numbers. They also invented ARABIC numerals, which is obviously used extensively. Also, Egyptians invented a number system based on 10 (similar to decimals today), and they also used fractions and whole numbers. Sumerians divided a circle into 360 degrees, as well as proposing a number system based on 60. That's what we use today in watches and compasses.
Still read my post CAREFULLY.

The rise of modern science in Europe, from the ancient Greeks to Isaac Newton. Other cultures were also quite interested and skilled in astronomy (the Mayans, Egyptians, peoples of India and China come immediately to mind), but the Greeks were the first ones to try to explain how the universe worked in a logical, systematic manner using models and observations. Modern astronomy (and all of science) has its roots in the Greek tradition."

And i said STARTED, i never said all math are greek or all astronomy. Or that they invented EVERYTHING. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD READ MY POST CAREFULLY.

I only used the word invented when i was talking about democracy. ANCIENT GREEKS CREATED/INVENTED/USED democracy. Period.



Quote:
Global union, huh? That's why only Ancient Greeks allowed Greeks to attend.
Please i didn't post the links just for the sake of it. You should read them.

Truce (in Greek, ekecheiria, which literally means "holding of hands") was announced before and during each of the Olympic festivals, to allow visitors to travel safely to Olympia. An inscription describing the truce was written on a bronze discus which was displayed at Olympia. During the truce, wars were suspended, armies were prohibited from entering Elis or threatening the Games, and legal disputes and the carrying out of death penalties were forbidden.


Quote:
I'm not trying to demean Greece. We owe so much to each and every one of these civilizations, so saying that one was more important than the other is essentially pointless. There are a lot of great things about these civilizations that make them equally important. India and Mesopotamia's religions still exist today (Hinduism/Buddhism and Judaism, respectively), even if those of Greece and Egypt don't. However, Greece and Egypt were incredibly important in SO many other aspects. No civilization is better than the other--that's where you went wrong!
Ancient Greece was extremely powerful, they did amazing things and the fact that i hear greek words everywhere, even though ONLY in Greece they speak Greek, means a lot. The fact that one civilisation offered a lot doesn't mean that others civilisations don't exist. And we are not debating about who is the best, we were talking about some facts. It's my opinion that Ancient Greece was the best civilisation. You have your opinion about the Greeks, i have mine. After all we have democracy (thanks to the Greeks)...

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Last edited by FashionJunkie; 12-07-2007 at 12:35 PM.
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12-07-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FashionJunkie View Post
Ancient Greece was extremely powerful, they did amazing things and the fact that i hear greek words everywhere, even though ONLY in Greece they speak Greek, means a lot. The fact that one civilisation offered a lot doesn't mean that others civilisations don't exist. And we are not debating about who is the best, we were talking about some facts. It's my opinion that Ancient Greece was the best civilisation. You have your opinion about the Greeks, i have mine. After all we have democracy (thanks to the Greeks)...
Okay. I don't have an opinion about which civilization was the best. I love the Greeks! lol. I'm sorry. I'll give you karma! haha. We should stop, now.



Last edited by FashionCapital; 12-07-2007 at 01:00 PM.
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12-07-2007
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Originally Posted by FashionCapital View Post
Okay. I don't have an opinion about which civilization was the best. I love the Greeks! lol. I'm sorry. I'll give you karma! haha. We should stop, now.


I respect everyone who did anything that will stand the test of time.

I don't believe that Greeks are amazing. SADLY Greece now have little to offer and it's far from what it used to be and btw i hate greek music to death. But Ancient Greeks i respect them and admire them to death.

From the beggining it wasn't a matter of who's the best. Only that all the facts that i stated are correct. I was trying to make a point.

No need to apologize.

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This is EXACTLY why there shouldn't be a new set of 7 wonders.

Too many arguments.

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12-07-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceOfCats View Post
The Taj Mahal is obscenely boring, not to mention unpleasantly bulbous, I have no idea what people find wondrous about it. The Alhambra is an incomparably more beautiful example of Islamic architecture. The vote seems slightly pointless as most people have never seen half these things - the fact that Angkor Wat wasn't voted for just highlights this ignorance. Could anyone find a circular lump of stone like the Colosseum more wondrous than Angkor Wat after having seen both? Pish.
Well I'll let you know about the Taj Mahal in September once I've seen it, but I couldn't agree more about the Alhambra. It's beauty is an unassuming one. It is elegant and serene. It is the sort of place that one would imagine was the setting of the Arabian Nights (giving or taking a little geographically speaking!). But people prefer show and vulgarity. I couldn't fault the Colosseum. I did like it and there is nothing on Earth like the wonders on every street in Rome. But I far prefer Pompeii in terms of the elegance of the houses and the life that once was there.

I personally would have the Anchorite Dwellings In Cappadocia on some list. They are dwellings carved into the rock formations and some are still inhabited.

http://www.nhavers.8k.com/cappadocia...0of%20love.jpg

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceOfCats View Post
Athens 'invented' the word democracy: several democracies had existed before Athenian democracy.
The medical treatise of the last centuries, which formed 'medicine', were written in Latin, as a lingua franca: Medical science owes a lot more to them than to Hippocrates.
Every ancient civilization wrote 'philosophy', Western culture happens to value Greek philosophy above others.
Greek sculptures are regarded as masterpieces in the Western tradition of art history (though they are largely only known through Roman copies): other traditions attach no importance to them. Not to mention that the states of ancient Greece did their fair share of killing.
The Middle East, actually.
The Greek Olympics haven't existed for over a thousand years. The modern Olympics were set up in France.

You should maybe think about how you might be a little biased...
I agree with the above. Arguments about the superiority of one nation over another are somewhat pointless (though I liked the way Jared Diamond explores it in Guns, Germs and Steel... in spite of his determinism!). It just happens that many Greek texts were preserved by Arab scholars and translated. Other 'civilisations' didn't have that luxury.


Last edited by SiennaInLondon; 12-07-2007 at 06:24 PM.
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12-07-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eternitygoddess View Post
This is EXACTLY why there shouldn't be a new set of 7 wonders.

Too many arguments.
I see your point, but it has also led to a great deal of thought-provoking discussion.

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I hate the whole "MY CIVILIZATION IS BETTER THAN YOUR CIVILIZATION" nonsense. That is precisely why humans cannot exist for one millisecond without a war.

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13-07-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiennaInLondon View Post
Well I'll let you know about the Taj Mahal in September once I've seen it, but I couldn't agree more about the Alhambra. It's beauty is an unassuming one. It is elegant and serene. It is the sort of place that one would imagine was the setting of the Arabian Nights (giving or taking a little geographically speaking!). But people prefer show and vulgarity. I couldn't fault the Colosseum. I did like it and there is nothing on Earth like the wonders on every street in Rome. But I far prefer Pompeii in terms of the elegance of the houses and the life that once was there.

I personally would have the Anchorite Dwellings In Cappadocia on some list. They are dwellings carved into the rock formations and some are still inhabited.

http://www.nhavers.8k.com/cappadocia...0of%20love.jpg
It looks like giants penises


Last edited by strawberry daiquiri; 14-07-2007 at 04:24 PM. Reason: please see tFS guidelines - quoting images
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13-07-2007
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^ LOL

Seriously, though. Those are beautiful.

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