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03-11-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sexydaydreamer



The way I see it, teenagers have no business having sex period. The vast majority of teenagers who do have sex have no idea what they are getting themselves into.

If you don't want a baby, then simply don't have sex, or at least put yourself on birth control (99% affective, when used properly), use condoms (97% affect, when used properly). There are so many contraceptives and anti-pregnancy pills out there for people to use, there is absolutely no reason to get pregnant. And besides, there are so many diseases out there, you just don't know who has what. That is another reason why you should wait for sex. Not for just financial (i.e. parenthood) issues, but also for medical/health reasons. Sex isn't a game, but a lot of people (teens as well as adults just don't realize it.)

And as for abortion, there are other ways to deal w/pregnancy besides aborting your child. Adoption and foster care are options. Of course, not every kid will get adopted, and will have to be put into foster care. But foster care is a lot better than being simply aborted. And besides, abortions can lead to guilt and guilt can lead to serious depression and depression can lead to suicide.

But in situations like rape, I can see why a woman would want to abort. I wouldn't blame her for doing so, but adoption should be considered. If the woman's life is on the line, then a woman should most definitely "abort" (in that situation, I wouldn't even consider it abortion but more like a "medical procedure."

So, if you don't want a kid, then don't have sex. Sex isn't a game or some recreation, there are so many emotional, mental and health factors that go into sex that need to be considered.

Anyway, I'm done w/my ramblings. Sorry for this long post!






But what if a person is not ready to have a child in any point of her life? Shouldn't she have sex? Should sex only be considered in the point where you can raise the child, if you would abort it you are not ready?

I have to say, I do not get what is the point in being against abortion. In my mind it is better to abort the child who is still a fetus than put it on foster care where it would be just pushed from one place to another (which many times happens). I think it is fine to have the child if you can raise it aswell as having an abortion if you cannot. One of the reasons why women who abort feel guilty about it are people who see it as something horribly wrong. Going through the whole pregnancy and childbirth and then giving the baby up for an adoption can be much more hurting. This subject is not black-and-white, but there is no reason to be against abortion in my opinion.

You are right that sex isn't a game. But it should neither be a too serious business. Besides being a way to have children, sex is a way to show your love to someone who care about and a way to have fun and relax. While people should be aware of the risks and take enough responsibility to use the pill and condoms, and not go with the first stranger they see at the bar while drunk, I do not see why sex has to be this difficult. Be responsible, know the risks and take care of the consequence, whether it is to have the child, give it up for an adoption or abort. Have sex when YOU want it, not when someone else wants it from you, have sex if you feel comfortable doing it and do not let other people make you do things you do not want to do. If you can handle that, then go on and have sex.

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Last edited by Whitelinen; 03-11-2006 at 10:25 AM.
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hmm, maybe in this girl's culture, it's appropriate to have a baby at this age. plus, she can afford to take care of the baby, so why not?

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^Affording DOESN'T = good mother.

I can't believe how some people on this board actually think it's alright for this to happen. She's 16 years old. She's been living with her parents all her life. She's never had any idea of the real world or what it means to be a mother and raise a child. She's never lived on her own. She herself is still a child where experience is concerned. Hell, she might still be in school and still trying to finish her education.

Plus, just because it's 'appropriate' in the culture doesn't mean it's the most reasonable thing. Afterall, doesn't the Middle East culture treat women like chattel?

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Still soaking wet behind the ears...young pup.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by eternitygoddess
^Affording DOESN'T = good mother.

I can't believe how some people on this board actually think it's alright for this to happen. She's 16 years old. She's been living with her parents all her life. She's never had any idea of the real world or what it means to be a mother and raise a child. She's never lived on her own. She herself is still a child where experience is concerned. Hell, she might still be in school and still trying to finish her education.

Plus, just because it's 'appropriate' in the culture doesn't mean it's the most reasonable thing. Afterall, doesn't the Middle East culture treat women like chattel?
I think I agree...while there are teen moms who have raised sane children, the risk is far more higher for them to not turn out ok...I do not see children having children as a good thing. But if she wants to go this way, it is her choice, I wouldn't do the same thing, but I wish all the best luck for her.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteLinen
But what if a person is not ready to have a child in any point of her life? Shouldn't she have sex? Should sex only be considered in the point where you can raise the child, if you would abort it you are not ready?

I have to say, I do not get what is the point in being against abortion. In my mind it is better to abort the child who is still a fetus than put it on foster care where it would be just pushed from one place to another (which many times happens). I think it is fine to have the child if you can raise it aswell as having an abortion if you cannot. One of the reasons why women who abort feel guilty about it are people who see it as something horribly wrong. Going through the whole pregnancy and childbirth and then giving the baby up for an adoption can be much more hurting. This subject is not black-and-white, but there is no reason to be against abortion in my opinion.

You are right that sex isn't a game. But it should neither be a too serious business. Besides being a way to have children, sex is a way to show your love to someone who care about and a way to have fun and relax. While people should be aware of the risks and take enough responsibility to use the pill and condoms, and not go with the first stranger they see at the bar while drunk, I do not see why sex has to be this difficult. Be responsible, know the risks and take care of the consequence, whether it is to have the child, give it up for an adoption or abort. Have sex when YOU want it, not when someone else wants it from you, have sex if you feel comfortable doing it and do not let other people make you do things you do not want to do. If you can handle that, then go on and have sex.
There are so many perspectives to abortion and sex, it really isn't worth talking about. If a woman doesn't want a child, but wants to have sex then she should do so w/protection. If a woman has unprotected sex but doesn't want a child, I call that irresponsible. I'm not saying sex is just for procreation, because it is not. But people should take sex seriously. Pregnancy is not the only consequence; you can get unwanted diseases that could kill you.

I'm not completely against abortion, I've never stated that in my post (I gave reasons as to why women should be able to have abortions.) The reason why many people are against it is because it goes against the religion and yes, abortion could be considered third rate murder (murder is a harsh word, I don't think abortion is "murder" exactly.) And you never know what kind of kid you are aborting, you could be aborting the person who is destine to find the cure for AIDs or something real important.

And you are right, sex is a way to show love, but honestly there are other ways to show your affection and people take sex for granted this days. (IMO) People should wait until they are in a serious, commited relationship before "giving it up." And when I mean serious, I don't mean "puppy love" or someone you've only been w/for a few months.

And you can never take sex too seriously. That is the point I'm trying to get at. I'm pro-choice, but to abort a fetus just because of a stupid mistake the parents made not the kid, is not right, IMO. But whatever. To each to her own, I suppose.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anastasia
I know it's not PC, but I do feel that if you are not ready to have a child (there's an arguement that no one is ever truly ready, no matter what the age or financial situation, but I'm talking about it not being an end of the world scenario) then you shouldn't be doing what could be leading you to have a child. Like, if you really don't want to get in a wreck because you've been drinking, you don't drink and drive - you don't drink and then drive really really slowly all the way home, clutching the wheel and concentrating really hard and hoping you don't crash. You probably won't crash, but if crashing is that horrible a prospect for you, why would you risk it?

I'm pro-contraception, and while I believe abortion is always the taking of an innocent life, I do believe it's not a black and white issue, and sometimes it's understandable and sometimes it's self-defense and sometimes it's murder. Every case is different, and I'm not for outlawing abortion, and I'm extremely pro-sex, but pro RESPONSIBLE sex. People of all ages don't seem to get that while sex does not have to be done only for procreative reasons, procreation is the natural result many times because of simple biology - women want it more, and are more attractive to men, when we're fertile. And too many people think with their genitals, or don't think at all, or think they can outsmart the system, and then are shocked and appalled when nature wins.

So yeah, I think you should have enough maturity and sense of responsiblity to be able to handle whatever may result from consensual sex before partaking in it. And again, I am NOT saying that people who have sex should be having babies willy nilly, or that's all that sex is there for, and I do think they should have some sort of basic intelligence when it comes to cause and effect. No form of birth control, outside of tying your tubes I think, is 100% effective. Even vasectomies have been known to reverse themselves. Everything else is below 100% by the Pill/condom/IUD/etc's makers own admission. If you're not ready to have a child and either raise it/put it up for adoption/have an abortion, you need to either not be having sex, not be having sex while fertile, or using like 3 different kinds of birth control at the same time.

I'm tired of people who don't bother with birth control, or don't bother to read the literature that comes with it (take the pill - 99% effective when used CORRECTLY - that doesn't mean just every day, that means every day at the same time, you're off by more than 3 hours for the estrogen pills, or 1 hour for the progesterin, you ovulate) and then act like their "surprise" pregnancy is some sort of inexplicable occurance. I'm tired of no one thinking things through, or taking responsiblity for the result of their actions.

And for those of you screaming that she's too young and should have an abortion - you're not pro-choice, I take it?
Agreed.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sexydaydreamer


There are so many perspectives to abortion and sex, it really isn't worth talking about. If a woman doesn't want a child, but wants to have sex then she should do so w/protection. If a woman has unprotected sex but doesn't want a child, I call that irresponsible. I'm not saying sex is just for procreation, because it is not. But people should take sex seriously. Pregnancy is not the only consequence; you can get unwanted diseases that could kill you.

I'm not completely against abortion, I've never stated that in my post (I gave reasons as to why women should be able to have abortions.) The reason why many people are against it is because it goes against the religion and yes, abortion could be considered third rate murder (murder is a harsh word, I don't think abortion is "murder" exactly.) And you never know what kind of kid you are aborting, you could be aborting the person who is destine to find the cure for AIDs or something real important.

And you are right, sex is a way to show love, but honestly there are other ways to show your affection and people take sex for granted this days. (IMO) People should wait until they are in a serious, commited relationship before "giving it up." And when I mean serious, I don't mean "puppy love" or someone you've only been w/for a few months.

And you can never take sex too seriously. That is the point I'm trying to get at. I'm pro-choice, but to abort a fetus just because of a stupid mistake the parents made not the kid, is not right, IMO. But whatever. To each to her own, I suppose.


Well yes, that is your opinion, and you are being very negative against abortion...and that is why I do not agree with any
religion, especially as those rules / believes in religion about women are set from men's perspective.

I was never saying pregnancy wasn't the only bad consequence of un-protected sex. I do agree that with sex, protection should always be used (unless you are with your long-time, clean partner and trying to have a child, of course), without it sex is irresponsible. But I was never saying otherwise.

Still, I think if you read the end of my last post made about this subject, I think sex can be fun too. Do what you feel is right and always protect yourself, and take care of the possible consequence. Be mature and you can have fun.

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[quote=WhiteLinen]Well yes, that is your opinion, and you are being very negative against abortion...and that is why I do not agree with any
religion, especially as those rules / believes in religion about women are set from men's perspective.
quote]

Back up, I never said I was against abortion nor have I shown a "negative" attitude toward it, nor have I said it was against MY religion but other peoples'. I'm starting to get the feeling that you are disrespecting me.

Yes, abortion can be necessary at times, but is not the only solution to a problem and that if people want to have sex but not want children, then they should be responsible.

Again, I'm PRO-CHOICE, but I do feel that abortion shouldn't be abuse. Ok? Ok.

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To clarify what I meant when I said sometimes I consider abortion murder - I have known of women who use no form of birth control, and are having 4, 5, 6 abortions to fix things, and they feel the fetus is a baby, but don't want it.

Some women agonize over their abortions, some are forced because of health or circumstance or the father (one of my aunts was forced at the age of 16 into having an abortion by her own parents in the 60's - my grandfather was a pilot, they dragged her onto a plane, to England, she had to be sedated and restrained during the procedure, and essentially went crazy, even though she'd been taught her whole life that it wasn't a baby, but a clump of cells - this same grandmother's first words my mother, her excited daughter-in-law, when told she was pregnant with me were "are you going to keep it?". Lovely liberated woman, my Grandma).

But other women DO use it because they don't like condoms, or can't remember to take the pill. Or want to look skinny in their bridal gown. Or, like one abhorrent NY journalist, by her own admission, because she didn't want to have to buy larger jars of mayonnaise for her family. Planned Parenthood doesn't want you to know about them, but they're out there. I've known them. And that, to me, is murder, if you're stopping a beating heart (which happens at about 22 days after conception) for reasons like that. It's not self-defense (health and welfare of the mother).

Ironically, I didn't have a strong stand about elective abortion until I lost my faith in god (though as a Civil War buff growing up, I'd always been disturbed by the sometimes identical statements used by those excusing slavery and abortion; and don't get me started on Margaret Sanger and her Nazi ideas of birth control and abortion). Religion has nothing to do with it for me, I could care less what they say. It was my atheist-scientist and wiccan friends who have always been the most staunchly against abortion, in my experience. It's an easy, somewhat disingenuous soundbite to say that only Religious Right men have a problem with it, and then only because God Says So.

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[quote=sexydaydreamer]
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteLinen
Well yes, that is your opinion, and you are being very negative against abortion...and that is why I do not agree with any
religion, especially as those rules / believes in religion about women are set from men's perspective.
quote]

Back up, I never said I was against abortion nor have I shown a "negative" attitude toward it, nor have I said it was against MY religion but other peoples'. I'm starting to get the feeling that you are disrespecting me.

Yes, abortion can be necessary at times, but is not the only solution to a problem and that if people want to have sex but not want children, then they should be responsible.

Again, I'm PRO-CHOICE, but I do feel that abortion shouldn't be abuse. Ok? Ok.
Did you read the post in which I responded to Anastasia's post in the top of the page? Sorry if you get the feeling I am being disrespectful, but I think we are misunderstanding each other.

I see your view about abortion as negative, because even though I do get that you are pro-choice, you say abortion should be used only when it is absolutely necessary and that it is not as good choice as giving the child for adoption. I see that as a negative view on abortion. But maybe I am not getting something, so do explain, please

As I said, if you read my post in the top of the page, I am not against abortion, but I think it is in no way a way of contraception. Condoms and pills are created for that. Of course there are other options on what to do with an un-wanted pregnancy than abortion, but I think they are all the same, none of them is better or worse.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anastasia
To clarify what I meant when I said sometimes I consider abortion murder - I have known of women who use no form of birth control, and are having 4, 5, 6 abortions to fix things, and they feel the fetus is a baby, but don't want it.

Some women agonize over their abortions, some are forced because of health or circumstance or the father (one of my aunts was forced at the age of 16 into having an abortion by her own parents in the 60's - my grandfather was a pilot, they dragged her onto a plane, to England, she had to be sedated and restrained during the procedure, and essentially went crazy, even though she'd been taught her whole life that it wasn't a baby, but a clump of cells - this same grandmother's first words my mother, her excited daughter-in-law, when told she was pregnant with me were "are you going to keep it?". Lovely liberated woman, my Grandma).

But other women DO use it because they don't like condoms, or can't remember to take the pill. Or want to look skinny in their bridal gown. Or, like one abhorrent NY journalist, by her own admission, because she didn't want to have to buy larger jars of mayonnaise for her family. Planned Parenthood doesn't want you to know about them, but they're out there. I've known them. And that, to me, is murder, if you're stopping a beating heart (which happens at about 22 days after conception) for reasons like that. It's not self-defense (health and welfare of the mother).

Ironically, I didn't have a strong stand about elective abortion until I lost my faith in god (though as a Civil War buff growing up, I'd always been disturbed by the sometimes identical statements used by those excusing slavery and abortion; and don't get me started on Margaret Sanger and her Nazi ideas of birth control and abortion). Religion has nothing to do with it for me, I could care less what they say. It was my atheist-scientist and wiccan friends who have always been the most staunchly against abortion, in my experience. It's an easy, somewhat disingenuous soundbite to say that only Religious Right men have a problem with it, and then only because God Says So.
That is exactly what I'm talking about. Ok, I can see one, abortion, maybe two, but beyond that is just ridiculous.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anastasia
To clarify what I meant when I said sometimes I consider abortion murder - I have known of women who use no form of birth control, and are having 4, 5, 6 abortions to fix things, and they feel the fetus is a baby, but don't want it.

Some women agonize over their abortions, some are forced because of health or circumstance or the father (one of my aunts was forced at the age of 16 into having an abortion by her own parents in the 60's - my grandfather was a pilot, they dragged her onto a plane, to England, she had to be sedated and restrained during the procedure, and essentially went crazy, even though she'd been taught her whole life that it wasn't a baby, but a clump of cells - this same grandmother's first words my mother, her excited daughter-in-law, when told she was pregnant with me were "are you going to keep it?". Lovely liberated woman, my Grandma).

But other women DO use it because they don't like condoms, or can't remember to take the pill. Or want to look skinny in their bridal gown. Or, like one abhorrent NY journalist, by her own admission, because she didn't want to have to buy larger jars of mayonnaise for her family. Planned Parenthood doesn't want you to know about them, but they're out there. I've known them. And that, to me, is murder, if you're stopping a beating heart (which happens at about 22 days after conception) for reasons like that. It's not self-defense (health and welfare of the mother).

Ironically, I didn't have a strong stand about elective abortion until I lost my faith in god (though as a Civil War buff growing up, I'd always been disturbed by the sometimes identical statements used by those excusing slavery and abortion; and don't get me started on Margaret Sanger and her Nazi ideas of birth control and abortion). Religion has nothing to do with it for me, I could care less what they say. It was my atheist-scientist and wiccan friends who have always been the most staunchly against abortion, in my experience. It's an easy, somewhat disingenuous soundbite to say that only Religious Right men have a problem with it, and then only because God Says So.
Why I mentioned religion was because sexydreamer mentioned it. I am in no way saying it is only men's opinion about the subject.

Well, I have heard from my mother, who works as a nurse, about women who get an abortion because they cannot get pregnant right now, but after two months they can and other "horror stories" and that are something incredibly immature. I do not get women like that.

I still have to state one more time that abortion is not contraception. I agree that it is no way of birth control, as I have no stated quite many times.

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[quote=WhiteLinen]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sexydaydreamer


Did you read the post in which I responded to Anastasia's post in the top of the page? Sorry if you get the feeling I am being disrespectful, but I think we are misunderstanding each other.

I see your view about abortion as negative, because even though I do get that you are pro-choice, you say abortion should be used only when it is absolutely necessary and that it is not as good choice as giving the child for adoption. I see that as a negative view on abortion. But maybe I am not getting something, so do explain, please

As I said, if you read my post in the top of the page, I am not against abortion, but I think it is in no way a way of contraception. Condoms and pills are created for that. Of course there are other options on what to do with an un-wanted pregnancy than abortion, but I think they are all the same, none of them is better or worse.
My views aren't even so much as negative. It's not like I'm saying abortion should be illegal. What I am trying to say is that people really should think, REALLY, REALLY hard about adoption, before getting an abortion. Why? Because there are plenty of couples who are baron who would love to be parents of the baby. Plus, I have several of friends who are adopted and if their biological parents were to abort them, I would have never become friends w/them.

I'm not negative about abortion, but I'm not positive about it either and nor do I look down on those who have had abortions. I like the idea of women being able to choose what to w/their bodies and all, but I also feel that there has to be a line drawn somewhere. But do as they may, do as they feel. Not my kid, not my problem I suppose. I just find it sad that many women feel that the only way out of a sticky situation is to abort their unborn child. That is why I prefer adoption.


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[quote=sexydaydreamer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteLinen

My views aren't even so much as negative. It's not like I'm saying abortion should be illegal. What I am trying to say is that people really should think, REALLY, REALLY hard about adoption, before getting an abortion. Why? Because there are plenty of couples who are baron who would love to be parents of the baby. Plus, I have several of friends who are adopted and if their biological parents were to abort them, I would have never become friends w/them.

I'm not negative about abortion, but I'm not positive about it either and nor do I look down on those who have had abortions. I like the idea of women being able to choose what to w/their bodies and all, but I also feel that there has to be a line drawn somewhere. But do as they may, do as they feel. Not my kid, not my problem I suppose. I just find it sad that many women feel that the only way out of a sticky situation is to abort their unborn child. That is why I prefer adoption.
There are so many children in the world to adopt, even if Western women would stop aborting so freely. The world is overpopulated and only a small part of humans live in good conditions.

I too have adopted friends. Still, I do think that if a woman does decide, from her own free will, to abort the child it is a good choice, as good as giving it up for adoption.

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