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03-11-2006
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[quote=WhiteLinen]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sexydaydreamer



There are so many children in the world to adopt, children who need adoption to survive even if Western women would stop aborting so freely. The world is overpopulated and only a small part of humans live in good conditions.

I too have adopted friends. Still, I do think that if a woman does decide, from her own free will, to abort the child it is a good choice, as good as giving it up for adoption.
Yeah, true. There are most definitely a lot of kids to adopt, but that is why I stress, contraceptives and abstinence so much, so women wouldn't be torn into choosing abortion, adoption or keeping the baby. And if women, especially those in third world countries, would stop having sex, then there wouldn't be so many kids to speak of. And as I said before, if a woman choices to abort, then fine, that's cool, I'm not going to look at her any differently than I did before and I'm not one to stop her. But all I ask to all the women out there is to check all your options before rushing to the nearest abortion clinic. You may just regret it.

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[quote=sexydaydreamer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteLinen

Yeah, true. There are most definitely a lot of kids to adopt, but that is why I stress, contraceptives and abstinence so much, so women wouldn't be torn into choosing abortion, adoption or keeping the baby. And if women, especially those in third world countries, would stop having sex, then there wouldn't be so many kids to speak of. And as I said before, if a woman choices to abort, then fine, that's cool, I'm not going to look at her any differently than I did before and I'm not one to stop her. But all I ask to all the women out there is to check all your options before rushing to the nearest abortion clinic. You may just regret it.
I have to say I view abortion as the first option, I think it is best for the child, but that is my opinion.

You are right about the third world countries. Unfortunately education, which is missing in those countries, means a lot, plus women are treated as un-equal to men and are forced to have sex and therefore to have children - and also get sexually transmitted diseases such as HI-virus.

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[quote=WhiteLinen]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sexydaydreamer



I have to say I view abortion as the first option, I think it is best for the child, but that is my opinion.

You are right about the third world countries. Unfortunately education, which is missing in those countries, means a lot, plus women are treated as un-equal to men and are forced to have sex and therefore to have children - and also get sexually transmitted diseases such as HI-virus.
Oh so that's where we disagree. Abortion is first on your list while adoption is mine. But I guess we can agree to disagree.

As for your last paragraph, what you say is sadly true. The majority of women (in Africa) who catch HIV caught it from their promiscuous husbands. The cycle must be stopped.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteLinen
Why I mentioned religion was because sexydreamer mentioned it. I am in no way saying it is only men's opinion about the subject.

Well, I have heard from my mother, who works as a nurse, about women who get an abortion because they cannot get pregnant right now, but after two months they can and other "horror stories" and that are something incredibly immature. I do not get women like that.

I still have to state one more time that abortion is not contraception. I agree that it is no way of birth control, as I have no stated quite many times.
That post wasn't intended for you. Just a general rant. I appreciate and respect your views on the subject - I may not agree with them 100%, but they are thoughtful and reasoned, which you don't often see in this debate

Sexydaydreamer said:
Quote:
Yeah, true. There are most definitely a lot of kids to adopt, but that is why I stress, contraceptives and abstinence so much, so women wouldn't be torn into choosing abortion, adoption or keeping the baby. And if women, especially those in third world countries, would stop having sex, then there wouldn't be so many kids to speak of. And as I said before, if a woman choices to abort, then fine, that's cool, I'm not going to look at her any differently than I did before and I'm not one to stop her. But all I ask to all the women out there is to check all your options before rushing to the nearest abortion clinic. You may just regret it.
I agree with this post so much, very well said. And I'd like to add that men need to stop having sex as well, and to respect women when they tell them it's not a good time - often in these 3rd world countries (though everywhere, and I'm NOT saying all 3rd world men are like this) there's a sense than men are entitled to their women's bodies whenever they want, and too bad if she doesn't, or if she'll get pregnant.

The feminist in me actually gets very riled up by abortion, and I love these quotes by the early feminists, because they state my feelings well:

"When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit." - Elizabeth Cady Stanton

"When a man steals to satisfy hunger, we may safely conclude that there is something wrong in society - so when a woman destroys the life of her unborn child, it is an evidence that either by education or circumstances she has been greatly wronged." - Mattie Brinkerhoff

"Abortion is the ultimate exploitation of women." - Alice Paul (Author of the Original Equal Rights Amendment)

I'm not for outlawing abortion for several reasons, but I do think it is sorrowful, and we need to do something to fix the root causes.



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But having a child that would be pushed from foster home to foster home, would have no love and might get abandoned would be ok? That often happens.

I am respecting your opinion, but I find those quotes disrespectul and offending. I see no wisdom in them.

I feel abstinence is not the answer, as sex is an enjoyable thing and it would definetily be a loss if we would only have it to have children.

The answer to third world countries problems is education.

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Last edited by Whitelinen; 03-11-2006 at 01:02 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteLinen
But having a child that would be pushed from foster home to foster home, would have no love and might get abandoned would be ok? That often happens.
Yes, it does, and it's often very sad. Perhaps we should euthanize those children in those situations, so that they don't suffer any longer than necessary?

Quote:
I am respecting your opinion, but I find those quotes disrespectul and offending. I see no wisdom in them.
I'm sorry they offend you. Honestly, I'm offended that any group is denied personhood status and deemed disposible, whether it is African slaves, Jews in the Holocaust, women throughout history, or the unborn. I am not equating abortion with those things, but I do view it as an easy slope to slide down, which is why I would like to see it diminished through education, abstinence, birth control, and getting people out of poverty, and teaching also teaching them better coping skills and perspective (not talking about rape here, but people like the mayonnaise woman). When you do not respect life in all forms, it is easy to not respect it in any form. I do believe abortion can be done with respect. But when it's treated casually, and like a good thing with absolutely no down sides, it is highly damaging not only to the people involved but society as a whole.

Quote:
I feel abstinence is not the answer, as sex is an enjoyable thing and it would definetily be a loss if we would only have it to have children.
Birth control and self control. No where did I advocate sex only for procreation. In fact, several times I said the exact opposite.

Quote:
The answer to third world countries problems is education.
Agreed.

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Im sorry...? who is she.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anastasia
Yes, it does, and it's often very sad. Perhaps we should euthanize those children in those situations, so that they don't suffer any longer than necessary?



I'm sorry they offend you. Honestly, I'm offended that any group is denied personhood status and deemed disposible, whether it is African slaves, Jews in the Holocaust, women throughout history, or the unborn. I am not equating abortion with those things, but I do view it as an easy slope to slide down, which is why I would like to see it diminished through education, abstinence, birth control, and getting people out of poverty, and teaching also teaching them better coping skills and perspective (not talking about rape here, but people like the mayonnaise woman). When you do not respect life in all forms, it is easy to not respect it in any form. I do believe abortion can be done with respect. But when it's treated casually, and like a good thing with absolutely no down sides, it is highly damaging not only to the people involved but society as a whole.



Birth control and self control. No where did I advocate sex only for procreation. In fact, several times I said the exact opposite.



Agreed.
Ok, sorry, I probably missed something

The unborn children are totally dependable on their mother. That is why I think it is the mother's decision, and the life of the child should be thought secondly.

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Im sorry...? who is she.
You remember the 13-year-old Aboriginal girl who got nominated for an Oscar a couple years ago? She got a lot of praise for her role, though she hasn't done anything like that since then.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteLinen
Ok, sorry, I probably missed something

The unborn children are totally dependable on their mother. That is why I think it is the mother's decision, and the life of the child should be thought secondly.
I do understand that position, and think it is valid - where we differ is that I sometimes am baffled at what I view as selfishness on the part of some mothers. Maybe because my body has not been my own since I was 17 (almost 29 now) because of the sudden development of an auto-immune disease....when I hear Oh, it's just not a good time, nine months are so looong, otherwise I'd go for adoption I think, you're joking, right? Nine months is a blink of an eye from my perspective, even with horrible, foreign stuff happening to your body against your will. But, it is my perspective, and that's why I don't want abortion outlawed.

Thank you for the good debate

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Thank you too

Hmm...I can understand, from my point of view, that it could be hard and long to be pregnant for nine months. Well, long in if we think that you have to carry a child you are not going to keep for nine months. It must be hard to give it up and have to try not to feel any feelings towards the child growing in your womb. If I imagine myself in that position, I think I would go mad!

But there are women who abort for stupid reasons...the women who cannot be pregnant at the moment, because they for example have studies to finish, but are planning to get pregnant after two months time...what is the logic in that? If you want a child in the near future, you cannot just set the exact date when you are going to have it...human biology just does not work that way.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteLinen

I feel abstinence is not the answer, as sex is an enjoyable thing and it would definetily be a loss if we would only have it to have children.
Well, for 60% of women. The other 40% might disagree

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Originally Posted by misssakura
Well, for 60% of women. The other 40% might disagree
Would you like to clear your point?

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Originally Posted by WhiteLinen
Thank you too

Hmm...I can understand, from my point of view, that it could be hard and long to be pregnant for nine months. Well, long in if we think that you have to carry a child you are not going to keep for nine months. It must be hard to give it up and have to try not to feel any feelings towards the child growing in your womb. If I imagine myself in that position, I think I would go mad!

But there are women who abort for stupid reasons...the women who cannot be pregnant at the moment, because they for example have studies to finish, but are planning to get pregnant after two months time...what is the logic in that? If you want a child in the near future, you cannot just set the exact date when you are going to have it...human biology just does not work that way.
Exactly

I've given serious thought to when and if I'd have an abortion. My fiance is a wonderful man, and though we're planning on not trying to conceive until we've been married about a year (we're going to be living in the attic apartment of his mother's house for that period, and that will be hard enough without a baby) it would be okay, even joyous - though a struggle - to get pregnant before that. Maybe even for the best, since we know we want a child, and sometimes when you put things off there's never a "right" time.

If I was carrying a baby with no brain, just an empty head, which happens sometimes. When I think about having to carry to term, and deliver, knowing the child was dead like that, I think I'd go absolutely insane. I don't know about rape. I've been sexually assaulted, and know the feelings that go along with that...but I can't get a feel on what I'd think if I became pregnant from something like that. Hopefully I'll never have to know.

Misssakura, 40% of women don't like sex? Is it that high? That's so interesting to me. I know there are many - my sister loathes it but does it anyway, my best friend has declared herself asexual (after experimenting with both men and women and liking neither) and is happy and content for the first time in her life.

I'm not interested all the time, but when I am, I have the libido and orgasm rate of a teenage boy I really, really love sex, and it's almost always extremely satisfying. But on the other hand, a lot of the time I feel like I could live without it if I needed to and be perfectly content. In the scheme of things, it's important, but not the be all and end all.

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Last edited by Anastasia; 04-11-2006 at 02:56 AM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteLinen
You remember the 13-year-old Aboriginal girl who got nominated for an Oscar a couple years ago? She got a lot of praise for her role, though she hasn't done anything like that since then.
actually shes Maori:p

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