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07-03-2012
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the couture supplement looks very bland...i don't really mind that miles aldridge and paolo roversi are always in it, but i'm not really fond of the idea of putting deborah turbeville in every supplement. and don't get me started on ellen von unwerth...
i really miss steven klein and steven meisel shooting for the supplement. blah.

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07-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LabelWhore4 View Post
Art isn't above reproach or moral judgement. This is hardly art, or even a legitimate fashion editorial.
I dont agree with you on this one, i think art is above anything. its a way to express what you see or feel. i think he did that on this editorial...
But I respect the opinions of everybody of cours.


Last edited by jmrmartinho; 07-03-2012 at 01:50 PM.
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07-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LabelWhore4 View Post
Art isn't above reproach or moral judgement. This is hardly art, or even a legitimate fashion editorial.
Oscar Wilde said that there's no such thing as a moral or immoral book. 'Books are well written or badly written. That is all!' As usual he was right. Books, or Art (fashion story in this case if you want to use this), can deal with evil, even repugnant subjects, but the work itself is not equivalent to the acts depicted. The work is merely a truthful depiction or it's not. That is all.

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07-03-2012
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^ A book (or art) itself cannot be immoral or moral, but the ideas presented within and the agenda of the creator can of course be "immoral" or "moral."

I don't think that the editorial is racist so much as it is classist.

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07-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueorchid View Post
^ A book (or art) itself cannot be immoral or moral, but the ideas presented within and the agenda of the creator can of course be "immoral" or "moral."

I don't think that the editorial is racist so much as it is classist.
Its both. This is basically a lazy ed, poking fun at poor black people, that is trying to masquerade as satire, parody, and worst of all art. Reinforcing harsh stereotypes that have long plagued a disinfranchised group of society is morally reprehensible at best. Art can be repugnant if the artists intent was to push a racist and classist agenda. Fashion is historically and thoroughly both of those things. And Vogue Italia had the nerve to put Joan on a cover that represents this editorial? That was hardly a mistake and is not above reproach.

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Last edited by LabelWhore4; 07-03-2012 at 02:50 PM.
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07-03-2012
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Wow at some comments in this thread. How how on earth is he "mocking" the black community? Meisel simply made reference to an urban culture of dressing, now when you call it from "black people", then you're generalizing because guetto =/= black people. It will be the same thing if he made an editorial with Harajuku references, aonother well known over the top dressing up couture, would that be offensive too? Meisel and Franca are always bringing elements from the street and pop/urban cultures to the pages of the magazine, but people always have to jump on the race issue for everything, even with a fashion editorial. What's next, calling them racist now?

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07-03-2012
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I see a lot of subcultures being mocked here, more than black people like cholas and those ganguro girls.

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07-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc10 View Post
Wow at some comments in this thread. How how on earth is he "mocking" the black community? Meisel simply made reference to an urban culture of dressing, now when you call it from "black people", then you're generalizing because guetto =/= black people. It will be the same thing if he made an editorial with Harajuku references, aonother well known over the top dressing up couture, would that be offensive too? Meisel and Franca are always bringing elements from the street and pop/urban cultures to the pages of the magazine, but people always have to jump on the race issue for everything, even with a fashion editorial. What's next, calling them racist now?
I see what you're saying but Harajuku girls dressing that way doesn't carry negative connotations that have been used to demean a group of historically discriminated people. I mean the editorial is called "Haute Mess" aka hot mess. Thats extremely negative. And your argument on ghetto=/=black people has been proven wrong in this very community. Let a black celeb be on the cover of a prestigious fashion mag and people would have commented on it being "ghetto" within the first two pages. Its happened too many times for me, and many others, to think it was a coincidence.

Race and class aside, this editorial isn't even visually stunning. The styling is weak and doesn't strengthen the message while displaying the key pieces of the season. Its just a jumbled mess. I find it repelling morally and aesthetically.

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07-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc10 View Post
Wow at some comments in this thread. How how on earth is he "mocking" the black community? Meisel simply made reference to an urban culture of dressing, now when you call it from "black people", then you're generalizing because guetto =/= black people. It will be the same thing if he made an editorial with Harajuku references, aonother well known over the top dressing up couture, would that be offensive too? Meisel and Franca are always bringing elements from the street and pop/urban cultures to the pages of the magazine, but people always have to jump on the race issue for everything, even with a fashion editorial. What's next, calling them racist now?
you´ve said it all!

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07-03-2012
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I don't automatically consider magazine editorials as art, some could be but it is not a given. Vogue Italia is an advertiser supported magazine owned by a media conglomerate. Steven Meisel is a photographer with a contract and my guess is it is a pretty lucrative one. The clothes featured in the editorials are likely from the latest collections. Good or bad, editorials in Vogue and other major magazines are first and foremost commercial projects, if art is produced, that is a happy accident.

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07-03-2012
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^

so confuse! @_@ lol

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07-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LabelWhore4 View Post
I see what you're saying but Harajuku girls dressing that way doesn't carry negative connotations that have been used to demean a group of historically discriminated people. I mean the editorial is called "Haute Mess" aka hot mess. Thats extremely negative. And your argument on ghetto=/=black people has been proven wrong in this very community. Let a black celeb be on the cover of a prestigious fashion mag and people would have commented on it being "ghetto" within the first two pages. Its happened too many times for me, and many others, to think it was a coincidence.

Race and class aside, this editorial isn't even visually stunning. The styling is weak and doesn't strengthen the message while displaying the key pieces of the season. Its just a jumbled mess. I find it repelling morally and aesthetically.
I've noticed what you're saying about people commenting on black cover stars here, but I don't think that a few perhaps racist, perhaps just not politically correct people are representative of the TFS community as a whole. We're not all closet racists.

Re: hot mess, plenty of editorials have used the term mess in their title -- dressy messy, whatever. It's certainly depicting a style that is not buttoned up suit dressing, but fashion would be boring if that's all it were. Is it so entirely, utterly impossible for you to conceive that the people who make these editorials are trying to capture something they actually admire? If it is, I don't think there's any debating with you. You seem to be suggesting that this is really just a big mockery of some culture that is somehow supposed to represent an entire racial group.

To me, that's just the silliest thing to assume, and one that speaks to your negative views of the people whose style inspired this ed, not to mention people who work in the fashion industry, the people who like this editorial, etc. I like it, and it's not because I'm laughing at how black folks dress, nor because i'm somehow totally unaware of the stereotypes about black people that traffic in some places.

Finally, the japanese/people of asian descent more generally are also members of a group that has historically suffered from discrimination and which to this day negative stereotypes abound, yet you seem curiously unable to see why this and an ed inspired by harajuku styling (no more representative of that group that this is of black people) aren't the same phenomenon. They are; if one isn't de facto offensive, why would the other be?

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07-03-2012
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Now this is an issue of Vogue Italia cause it's being talked about so much since the entirety of the main editorial was posted. To be honest, I don't find any offensive thing to the main editorial at all. Although I'm not black. Because quiet frankly, I think it's actually nice and Meisel pulled off very well the Ghetto reference thing. How could it be mocking? I just don't get it. I think he's just doing his job here as a photographer and toying with a certain idea like this one. Kudos to both Meisel for coming up with a story like this.

Looking forward to seeing Guinevere by Sundsbo and Zimmer by Aldridge. Thanks for the review tentalicious!

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07-03-2012
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I personally think the editorial has racist undertones. Even if you can't see racism here, there is still classism. I see these images and all I see are girls wearing expensive clothes mimicking what "poor people" look like.

Like others have said, it's particularly shocking since Meisel is an American photographer. You would think he would know better. Then you add the fact that the first VI cover for a black model in four years and it has a main editorial mocking "ghetto" style. It's pretty messed up.

The saddest thing about this shoot is that a lot of people (as shown on here and other sites) don't seem have a problem with it, so crap like this will continue to get made and no doubt you'll have a few copy cats doing "ghetto" style stories within the next few months.

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07-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thankyouhon View Post
I personally think the editorial has racist undertones. Even if you can't see racism here, there is still classism. I see these images and all I see are girls wearing expensive clothes mimicking what "poor people" look like.

Like others have said, it's particularly shocking since Meisel is an American photographer. You would think he would know better. Then you add the fact that the first VI cover for a black model in four years and it has a main editorial mocking "ghetto" style. It's pretty messed up.

The saddest thing about this shoot is that a lot of people (as shown on here and other sites) don't seem have a problem with it, so crap like this will continue to get made and no doubt you'll have a few copy cats doing "ghetto" style stories within the next few months.
I 100% agree.

I think it's pretty evident that a lot of people commenting here are pretty ignorant of the sociocultural implications of a photoshoot like this in an expensive fashion magazine....

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