How to Join
the Fashion Spot / Front Row / Careers, Education & the Business of Fashion
FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Rules Links Mobile How to Join
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
30-09-2012
  121
front row
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Gender: femme
Posts: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1999 View Post
Hi guys, a quick question about LORs. Can you give a personal LOR to a showroom if you are not shooting for an editorial? I've been asked to bring one and they are aware the shoot is not being conducted through a mag. What would this type of letter look like? I've tried searching to no avail.
Posted via Mobile Device

If you're googling it you'll find better results searching for Pull Letter or Stylists Pull Letter. I found this from right here on tFS http://forums.thefashionspot.com/f90...hes-27744.html (see BetteT's post towards the bottom)

  Reply With Quote
 
01-10-2012
  122
V.I.P.
 
BetteT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Gender: femme
Posts: 20,370
To be honest, it's pretty unlikely that if it's not for a mag, that they will lend. Unless the photographer or model is welll known (as in "famous") ... or they want to do a favor for the stylist (who is known to have the abitlity to get their clothes on the backs of celebs or in major fashion magazines .... so they want to keep him/her happy) .... there is nothing in it for them. Publicity is the whole purpose of lending clothing and that is why it's usally the publicists or PR office that runs the showroom where they lend samples. They decide who gets what ... based on the level of pulicity you will provide.

If they are willing to lend, your letter of responsibility/pull letter needs to spell out who will be financially responsible for any loss or damage to their stuff .... the stylist? the photographer? And they might ask for a credit card, if they don't know you. Also, if it's for spec, and it has the potential to get published after the fact, you should probably add that you will provide credits to the designer should it get picked up.

__________________
Bette
** It's All in the Details! **
http://www.musecube.com/BetteT/

Last edited by BetteT; 01-10-2012 at 10:05 AM.
  Reply With Quote
06-10-2012
  123
chaos reigns
 
ultramarine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Costa Rica
Gender: homme
Posts: 6,491
On my experience its hard to get clothes loaned if they are not going to be published/seen. As Bette pointed out, the whole purpose is to get free advertising.

My suggestion is to tap new designers or students who NEED pictures of their clothes.

__________________
Have you rated this thread yet?
  Reply With Quote
07-10-2012
  124
etre soi-meme
 
Lena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: europe
Gender: femme
Posts: 23,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultramarine View Post

My suggestion is to tap new designers or students who NEED pictures of their clothes.
this always works

  Reply With Quote
12-11-2012
  125
rising star
 
xbryony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: London
Gender: femme
Posts: 110
Ok I've finally trawled my way through the two parts to this thread over the past few days. Wow haha BetteT your input is so invaluable

I'm bracing myself (and my concentration/square eyes) to go onto all the other related threads which I have bookmarked from the posts here! I just have one question before I leave this one...

If you're shooting for an editorial, the general consensus (I'm based in London, I think the rate is the same as the US) is that you get paid nothing, or next to nothing. But how about the expense of it all? I've interned at a few magazines and assisted a couple of stylists. Returning all that stuff is not cheap! Especially if you're returning to Paris/NY/Milan, or returning precious items that need to be couriered same day and signed for etc in London. Also, posting things back to other parts of the UK has proved to be freaking expensive too. And then of course, there's getting to and from the shoot, which in London usually means lots of cars being booked (it's very rare for people to drive themselves around here - too expensive, too hard to find parking, too much congestion on the roads already yadda yadda)

As far as freelancing for the bigger magazines goes, I've seen the stylists assistants come in and prep the clothes/organise returns themselves and instruct the interns, so that the interns are basically returning everything as they normally would with the in-house staffs' returns, at the expense of the publishing company. And in some of these magazines, most notably the one I'm in and out of interning right now, they actually have a separate booking team, who organise the models and stylists and photographers and make-up and location and catering and travel/hotels etc. They liaise with the editors about what photogs and models they would like to shoot with (big names here, and some of them are very particular about who they don't want to work with) but as far as the freelancers go, I'm not so sure how it works? I know that they have regular contributors that will just come in to do a story now and then, but I don't know if the bookers speak to that stylist and say who do you want to work with? (photog and make up wise) or if the photographer is booked first and they get to choose - as suggested in this thread - as after all, these stylists are regular contributors and the ones who actually come into the office to put all their things on their rails (or at least their assistants do) and have run-throughs with the editors. Sometimes fittings too, with the photog present. Nevertheless, the stylist and their assistant are the ones more frequently in and out of the offices and in contact with the rest of the team. Therefore, I don't see why the photographers commissioned by the magazine would be the only ones who get a say in who styles the story? I think at this publication and some of the others I've worked at, all these people are at the top of their game anyway so will have crossed paths at some point or another and will know who they do and don't like to work with. I'm just not sure if the booking editor/fashion director/EIC have a process of deciding on the photographer/stylist they want to bring in first? or if it changes. I mean, I think it's fairly well known that some big name photographers (Patrick?) have multi-million dollar contracts (with Conde and the like) meaning they have to shoot a certain number of editorials for their magazines per year, so that will make some decisions for them automatically. I just wonder if any of their contributing fashion editors (stylists) might have the same contractual agreement? So many questions!

Ok I'm going off tangent giving more of an insight and not asking my original Q. Which is, say you want to style an ed for an indie/niche fashion magazine (we seem to have tons of them in London) and you're pretty fresh in the whole styling business, well I personally would be happy to shoot free of pay for the tears and to say 'I've styled an editorial for XYZ mag' rather than 'All I have here is tests but...'
But in this case, I'm still confused at to whether A) the magazine would always be responsible for the clothes I pull should anything happen to them, as per the pull letters and discussions in this thread... and whether the magazine are responsible for any expenses incurred by working on the editorial?
I would have to spend money either on my own travel going to showrooms, and/or re-imbursing my intern's travel expenses for every day that they work with me should I need an extra helping hand, and the biggest costs of all - getting to and from the shoot with all the clothes and gear, and getting everything returned to the showrooms/stores/designers afterwards. I don't care so much about being paid for the work itself, but those expenses build up and I wouldn't want to end up being out of pocket for it.
It's hard enough to get by doing unpaid work for so long while you build up your book, reputation and contacts, and it's hard enough investing in things like business cards and steamers and prop kits, but then using your own money (which you don't even have to begin with) to fund all those shoot expenses is just not economically viable is it? I think it's so easy to get exploited in this industry, and the amount of people jumping into this thread seeking advice is merely a scratch on the amount of people who are really trying to find their way in this business, and probably being taken for a ride out of naivety and desperation. Sadly, the more vulnerable people out there being exploited, the harder it is for people to get paid their fees/expenses reimbursed when they are right to, because there are so many people around who will cluelessly do it all free or charge so why would they want to pay someone or pay someone a lot to do the same job (in the beginning especially).
To add to my question about expecting expenses to be covered at least for unpaid editorial work, when you are doing commercial work or anything that pays at least, do you quote them your fee (day rate + prep and return days), then separately quote them for your predicted expenses on top of your fee?

Apologies for the most incoherent post of the whole tfs forum

__________________
  Reply With Quote
12-11-2012
  126
chaos reigns
 
ultramarine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Costa Rica
Gender: homme
Posts: 6,491
The things is, in my expertise, I love working with a mix of clients.

Indie magazines give you much more freedom and because of the fact they rarely pay and sometimes they do cover the costs (by sending you a chauffeur and a staff member to help and bring food, etc ... or that is my case/in this country) but the biggest interest for me as a stylist is the creative freedom. They are more risque and allow you to do things that most mags or clients wouldnt allow. And the people who work for free generally do love what they are doing so the energy of the shoot and outcome if fab. So yes, you may incurr into lots of expenses but being a stylist is about networking. Who knows if the ppl of the team you met (photog, model, hair+make up) are big shots or they are making it and WILL refer you for future, very well payed jobs?

This is a gamble. You game or not, but please remember that beggars arent choosers and the more people you know the better is for you (of course, a solid portfolio is a must).

About the fee ... I do not have like fee-fee. I always investigate the customer and try to find out how much money are they willing to pay or have payed in the past and match it against my very own fees. so pretty much I quote everyone except the regulars.

A good advise I got is to either work for free or be expensive, regretfully, the market over here isnt as competitive as in London so im not sure that would be the best choice.

Break a leg.

__________________
Have you rated this thread yet?
  Reply With Quote
12-11-2012
  127
rising star
 
xbryony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: London
Gender: femme
Posts: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultramarine View Post
So yes, you may incurr into lots of expenses but being a stylist is about networking. Who knows if the ppl of the team you met (photog, model, hair+make up) are big shots or they are making it and WILL refer you for future, very well payed jobs?
Well of course I know this, but as I pointed out it's already not a paying job, after another job that doesn't pay, after doing unpaid tests etc etc. You literally end up in a position where you have to rely on someone else for your income, a loan/overdraft/debt for your income, or you have to do a job you hate for a while in order to save up - the latter not even being an option for me because to even get an entry level job that I hate in this climate would only provide me enough income to pay rent, bills, food and transport with nothing left over at the end of the month to put into savings.
So it's not just about how much you want to succeed, it's how to keep your head above water financially when you are starting out. My dad is already helping me out whilst I intern, which I hate and he hates, especially since I graduated from university (fashion journalism) more than a year ago so it's a unique position to be in where I'm not supporting myself by now, and I have other younger siblings who he is now supporting at university too. I'm fortunate to even have him and my part-time retail job as a means of support. But that just keeps me level with the expense of living and working in this city. To spend money on all the necessary kit, the tests, then to fund the expenses incurred via shooting and returning for unpaid editorials out of my own non-existent money can only go on for so long before my bank/dad cut me off entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ultramarine View Post
This is a gamble. You game or not, but please remember that beggars arent choosers and the more people you know the better is for you (of course, a solid portfolio is a must).
Of course I'm game. I knew I wanted to do this ten years ago when I was about 12 maybe younger. I studied fashion at degree level (which honestly was a waste of money for any undergraduates wondering here) and I have interned and assisted my *** off, all unpaid.
It's not me saying I'm not game, or being fussy about what work I take on to build my portfolio. I was saying I would love to submit to those indie mags, as I am very aware that they are the most creative and not restrained by using advertisers (honestly the conversations I hear at this current mag about who's shooting what are painful to hear sometimes) but I was merely inquiring about the typical system used in order to make sure you're not spending hundreds of pounds for each small job. Because let's face it, it won't just take one editorial in an indie mag to impress people and get bigger paid gigs. You're gonna need to keep doing more and more of them and working up to bigger magazines, until you're at a point where you're freelancing for mags where they have their own interns return everything for you, in their own fashion cupboard, in their own office, in their own publishing companies building, that has its own logistics department sending everything out, in their own budget. And when you're at that level (we're basically talking Elle, Glamour, Harper's, Vogue etc) you're definitely going to be getting paid work too and therefore won't be anywhere near as worried about having to pay for the odd car here and there.

You're making it seem like a very silly and petty thing to be concerned about, but really keeping your head above water is the hardest thing in starting out with styling in my opinion. If I had a rich husband I could work on tests and indies 7 days a week, and pay an intern travel and lunch to help with the grunt work, and take cars or even drive my own, and not worry about the cost of shipping and couriers, and be the happiest girl in the world doing a job I love and not be concerned with whether it takes me 5 months or 5 years to get some recognition, but for most people interested in this that is not the reality. And that is why a lot of the people at the top (not all of course) are 'well connected' - ie. wealthy, family contacts, went to certain schools, snagged a handy piece of arm candy - because it's so hard to climb all that way up when you have no money or contacts to start with, and you genuinely physically cannot do it if you have no money to pay rent with. Like literally can't. Being homeless and malnourished is highly impractical in any industry.

__________________
  Reply With Quote
12-11-2012
  128
V.I.P.
 
BetteT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Gender: femme
Posts: 20,370
You have to look at it this this way:

You are running a business ... and the product is your services. And as any small business must do, you must advertise your services so that people who need this service actually know that you exist and have something special to offer. And "advertising" costs a lot of money. But instead of the little print shop on the corner who can pay for ads in the local paper, and commercials in the local radio station ... you have to find other, more difficult ways to reach the people who hire stylists for paying jobs.

And it's not usually magazines that pay ... at least anything approaching a "day rate" for each day you put in to do an editorial. And big fashion mags have stylists on staff ... so they don't hire freelancers often ... unless you are someone like Carine Roitfeld. The real jobs that pay are not this glamorous. They are usually things like catalogs, hang tags and look books for local designers, ads for retail stores, and if you are inclined and there is a market for it in your city, styling the rich and almost famous.

Consider magazine editorials as what you do for publicity and to market yourself. It's way cheaper than taking out ads in Womens Wear Daily or Vogue. It gets your name out there in print, but more importantly, it allows you to network with people who might be getting paying jobs (photographers, makeup artists, models, etc.) who occassionaly might be asked by thier clients about who they recommend for styling. And it will also will allow you to add the magazines to your resume and the eds to your portfolio ... which you can then use when you approach paying clients and ask for jobs.

Therefore, the expenses that you incur doiing an unpaid editorial are part of your marketing expenses.

So yes ... you have to find a "real job" or be able to dip into savings to support this, until your own business becomes self sustaining. Marekting is just a cost of doing business .... and without this, no small business can survive and grow. And yes .... it's extremely hard. Most stylists don't actually ever make enough to be able to support themselves in this biz. But ... if it's what you want to do .... just know the it takes guts, assertiveness .... and money.

Just don't confuse doing editorials with being a paid stylist .... they are free advertising for you.

__________________
Bette
** It's All in the Details! **
http://www.musecube.com/BetteT/

Last edited by BetteT; 12-11-2012 at 08:47 PM.
  Reply With Quote
12-11-2012
  129
V.I.P.
 
BetteT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Gender: femme
Posts: 20,370
Now ... to answer your base question:
Quote:
But in this case, I'm still confused at to whether A) the magazine would always be responsible for the clothes I pull should anything happen to them, as per the pull letters and discussions in this thread... and whether the magazine are responsible for any expenses incurred by working on the editorial?
If the magazine signed a pull letter, and then the wardrobe is lost of damaged, the supplier will have to take it up with the magazine ... because they signed the gurarantee. But .... the publishers might feel you were negligent in not takeing enough precautions to protect them and might come after you to reimburse them.

If the magazine commissions you to do an editorial .... which is way different from a photographer just submitting something in the hopes that they will publish it (a "spec shoot"), you can sometimes negotiate enough to cover your basic expenses, like travel and one meal, even if they won't pay for your services.

Tip: Sometimes the supplier (the designer) will pay for all shipping costs. Usually they ship the wardrobe to me on their own dime ... so I just ask them to provide a return label ... which then charges the return shipping to their account automatically. And I usually get it ... which makes me very happy. Remember ... the supplier is going to get free advertising too ... because they will be credited by you (important information that you must supply to the publisher when the photos are submitted.)


Negotiation is a large part of what a stylist does ... he negotialtes his rates all the time after determining how much his expenses are going to run. Small start up mags won't pay a penny ... so the stylist will have to decide if the publicity is worth not only his time but also the expense. Sometimes a magazine which won't pay a day rate might agree to pay expenses up to a certain amount. On paying jobs, a stylist can either charge expenses seprarately or he can factor his expenses into his day rate so that he can still make a profit. So ... a sucessfull stylist is also has to be an adept business person.

__________________
Bette
** It's All in the Details! **
http://www.musecube.com/BetteT/

Last edited by BetteT; 12-11-2012 at 09:04 PM.
  Reply With Quote
13-11-2012
  130
rising star
 
xbryony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: London
Gender: femme
Posts: 110
Thank you BetteT for your responses. I appreciate you taking the time to repeat these things which I'm sure you get bored of, and most of it I am aware of already.
I guess I was just trying to figure out in my head how much I need to invest out of my own 'savings' in order to make sure that I even have enough to get myself started off with. I don't want to get stuck in then run out of money with nowhere to turn and have to start all over again a year down the line. I would rather hold on for a bit whilst I figure out out to get more 'funding' in place.
The trouble with comparing yourself as a stylist, to a small start-up business, is that a lot of small start-up businesses will get investors or a bank loan after proposing their business idea, which will cover the costs of renting out a space and marketing and hiring people etc until they break even and start making profit, from which the bank or investors can finally benefit. I'm not sure it would be so plausible to do this as a freelance stylist? Could be worth a shot, could get laughed out of the bank...

__________________
  Reply With Quote
13-11-2012
  131
V.I.P.
 
BetteT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Gender: femme
Posts: 20,370
Well .... it's more than having enough to get started ... you will continue this throughout your entire career. It never stops .... spending money for marketing.

And unfortunatlely, there's no "standard" amount to start up a styling business. So you are right ... not too likely an investor would like the numbers, which are too vague to determine the risk.

However, for an aspiring stylist, it's rather simple but hard to grasp: the more time and money you can pour into it and the more you get your name out there, the more likely you will get noticed by those who hire stylists and the sooner you have a chance of making any money at all. I would say allow at least two years minimum, before you even get a paid job. And one job does not make a career. So, you have to not only cover expenses for tests, editorials and marketing materials, you also have to support yourself with minimal or no income from styling gigs. Even after you get a few paid gigs, they only last a few days each, you still have to go out an find the next one so it's very slow going for a lot of years.

So ... what most stylists do to get started is to minimize personal explenses (live at home, if possible or with a group of roommates to make rent cheap) and have a flexible job or two, where they can get time off when needed for tests and gigs. Many stylists, models and other freelancers often get jobs like waiting tables, bartending (where you can usually get another server to cover for you and you can work evenings) and working for a temp agency so you can schedule yourself.


That's about all the advice I can offer .... suck it up and live in poverty, pouring every extra dime you get into it, while you strive to make a name for yourself. And keep testing even if you aren't doing anything else ... because you are still networking and learning your craft, so that you are prepared when that opportunity might come along.

__________________
Bette
** It's All in the Details! **
http://www.musecube.com/BetteT/

Last edited by BetteT; 13-11-2012 at 11:57 AM.
  Reply With Quote
31-01-2014
  132
windowshopping
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: the Czech Republic
Gender: femme
Posts: 5
Hey, fellow stylists! I would like to revive the thread again. Such a shame it's been dead for so long. It helped me the most when I started.

I wanted to ask you - do any of you have any tips for "pinning" the clothes? I mean when you are doing product shooting for a magazine, you e.g. have to "pin" the top (dress, pants, whatever) to a white wall and then photographer will shoot it. Don't you know if there is something like a tutorial or anything? I don't think it's that difficult, but I will do it soon, so I'd like to be prepared as much as I can .

Plus, it's a great opportunity to start the conversation again! Thanks in advance!

__________________
Fashion Styling & Fashion Marketing
www.karindimitrovova.com
  Reply With Quote
01-02-2014
  133
fashion insider
 
Andrea.RL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Paris
Gender: femme
Posts: 2,145
I interned at this place from november to january, where they sold clothes online. We shot them on models but also "packshots", I think what you're talking about. We never pinned them up, we used a slanted surface covered with the white paper they use in studios, and set the clothes as we wanted on it. (I think it might be easier than pining, but you need the space and stuff to "pile up" + a board to make the slanted surface)

__________________
MAVERICKS MAGAZINE + Undefined Wilderness x Portfolio
tildaLINDSTAM- zenSEVASTYANOVA- marineDELEEUW
  Reply With Quote
03-02-2014
  134
windowshopping
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: California
Gender: femme
Posts: 12
Do any of you live in NYC? I'll be visiting in March! We should set up a wardrobe stylist TFSmeetup

  Reply With Quote
Reply
Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Tags
#2, fashion, stylist, wardrobe
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

monitoring_string = "058526dd2635cb6818386bfd373b82a4"


 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:31 AM.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
TheFashionSpot.com is a property of TotallyHer Media, LLC, an Evolve Media LLC company. ©2014 All rights reserved.