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07-06-2011
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vanrijn's Avatar
 
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fiancee.. thank you for such a thoughtful response, i appreciate your suggestion. congrats on making your publication successful to the point where people are hoping to get their models in there!

would you mind sharing a link to the publication? only if you're comfortable putting it in such a public forum of course, totally understand if you'd rather not

have a good day!!!

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07-06-2011
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^
I'm sending you a personal message now

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08-06-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanrijn View Post
thank you so much prosperk.... **edited**

so if we take out expectations for free shoots, do you have an idea of what we should offer to pay without insulting them? i.e. 200? or more like 500.. again for newer faces

thanks again!
I wouldn't offer to pay them if I were you! None of the Condé Nast titles on which I worked ever paid models, as far as I recall. Of course, they have more weight than a new independent title. The magazines usually paid their expenses as well as those of the photographer and his crew, including hair and make-up. On the rare occasion that a photographer was paid - their agents usually tred to get as many pages as possible and, obviously, the cover rather than fees - it was around $200 and that was for a cover by a top smudger.

Of course, you need to watch it with expenses because middling to top girls often demand business class tickets and expensive hotel rooms. Newbies are content to share a cardboard box on the Bowery with Bourbon Bill or to sleep ten to a bed in some lice-ridden rat hole because it's sometimes better than where they grew up.

Seriously, though, there is a trade-off in that photographers, stylists, hairstylists, make-up artists and models will do magazine fashion stories or "editorials" FOC as long as they are good enough to go into their books and on their websites and attract advertising contracts. That's their goal when they look at any magazine, established or new.

So you need to offer a certain amount of artistic liberty as well. The stories need to be really well-conceived. Of course, many photographers and stylists will propose their own ideas so your fashion editor's ego shouldn't be too big, if you get my drift. A good magazine, like a good party, should involve an eclectic mixture of people, styles and tastes.

There again, they will also often demand certain models and that's where what was shaping up to be a really great shoot becomes a headache, because the model's agents will start trying to scalp you. This is where you have to take a deep breath, forget that you are dealing with Photographer Numero Uno, and say "No, we can't afford their expenses. Sorry!" At this point, many photographers will actually cover those expenses themselves, if they are rich and successful.

It's just another variation on good old-fashioned horsetrading. There's no handbook. You just have to get in there and sink or swim. Another booby trap to watch out for is the location. I consulted to a start-up a couple of years back. The editor/publisher/fashion director/any cool title she felt she deserved was a pathological egomaniac with various 'issues', including the conviction that she should not have to pay anyone for anything.

So, there we all are, with an iconic photographer, the requisite new model of the moment (only because of the photographer), a good crew and so on. First the photographer switches locations from somewhere around Paris to Spain. A polite but firm telephone call later, telling him "No Way José", and it's back to Paris but in a top studio. I rang all the alarm bells but my client's ego had taken over. She had appointed herself the stylist on the shoot and she would have killed for the fix.

As they were doing the last photograph of this shoot, which turned out to be a three-legged dog of a series that you couldn't even sell to Vague Mars, the studio manager turned up with the bill, wanting immediate settlement as he'd sensed 'doomed newbies'. The Ego threw a tantrum before collapsing in tears because the bill was higher than it would have been had they gone to Spain.

So, watch out for the hidden traps. Establish your budgets and don't be scared of telling anyone, no matter how important they seem, that those are the budgets, full stop. If they're talking to you in the first place, they want something you can give them, right? Most of the time, anyway. So bluff them. If that shoot brings them some advertising work, you won't get a commission! You won't even be thanked. So treat it as the trade-off it is. They're good for you but you're good for them too.

All this said, I approve mightily of the suggestion that you cast your models in the street. Walk down Spring Street on a sunny day and you'll be spoiled for choice. You'll also create more interesting shoots. We sent one young but very interesting photographer to Africa one time. Cheap tickets. He got off the plane with the stylist and someone carrying the clothes, charmed the locals and got one of the only non-patronising "Black" stories I can remember in a house where I was once told to tell Peter Lindbergh that the Rachel Roberts cover he had shot for Australian Vogue couldn't be used because the hairstylist hadn't straightened her hair and the local publisher felt people might think she was a "half-caste" with her "velco hair and thick lips". With all credit to the owners, this dinosaur was sacked soon afterwards. But that's how it was and how it remains in many areas of Planet Fashion.

So, moral of that situation: do your casting in the street by all means but remember whose clothes and accessories you're gonna be putting on those people and remember that some of your potential advertisers - the people getting those brand credits on the story - are raving bigots who tend to use Aryan models because that's the image they want to promote. Plenty of anecdotes along those lines too, but I've rambled on long enough and I have an appointment with some pain down the gym. Gotta keep that belt buckle in plain sight...

Levity aside - and you do need a sense of humour to launch a fashion mag - feel free to drop me a line if you need any serious advice because you're obviously approaching this mission in a thoughtful way, and asking some very pertinent question, which sets you aside from the atmosphere whistlers.

PK

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Last edited by prosperk; 08-06-2011 at 05:17 AM.
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08-06-2011
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How cool is that Prosperk answered your questions vanrijn! I appreciate his insightful opinion on fashion magaziness. And being fashion editor\stylist\producer\makeupartist in a magazine I work for 4 years, it was always great to have his replies and helpful answers to my questions!

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11-06-2011
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prosperk - my apologies for the late reply as I just saw this--it's been hectic to say the least (in a good way), but thank you SO MUCH for your extremely thoughtful response. That helps a lot, and as always I love your 'colorful' stories which add so much helpful detail, never for a second view it as rambling!!
I see your point about the benefit they receive from being published, and I think a lot of this 'pitching' we are expecting to do will be 10x easier once the first issue comes out and people actually see our vision and how artistic the final product is. So as you said, we are dealing with the 'egos' and 'divas' in the meantime, but we just stay focused on our goals.

I appreciate your offer, and will drop you a line as things progress!!! hope you had a good workout!!

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11-06-2011
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i'm new and just want to say there is an amazing amount of information that you guys are willing to share, it's wonderful

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12-06-2011
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Welcome, konik!

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12-06-2011
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Bette (or anyone else with a comment) - noticed you're in LA. I've been in NY for over a decade now, but play around with the idea of moving to LA... are you able to find good models/stylists/photographers out there or do you end up having to fly elsewhere or get your team on a plane over to you?
Some context, I'm discussing teaming up with some folks to develop a magazine, and office space etc is so expensive here we're considering other locations...

thank you

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13-06-2011
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I am a stylist ... so I don't have a team ... I'm part of someone else's team, for the most part.

However, there is a lot of talent here and not enough paying work ... so if you are paying (most magazines don't or at least don't pay our real rates) ... you'll have a lot to choose from. However ... we don't work with top fashion photographers ... they are all pretty much in NY ... and so are their teams. Most of us end up doing commercial stuff ... catalogs, advertising, lookbooks, etc.

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14-06-2011
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good information, thanks Bette!

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24-06-2011
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So if we book the girl a hotel and give her $50 for gas will that cover the expenses?

We're in a very small market and I'm looking for TWO girls with a specific look (high fashion look) for our magazine cover, and I'm getting frusterated because the magazine owner doesn't want to pay for girls to come from LA (which is 1.5 hours away). All of the girls here are cheesy commercial "pretty" or overprocessed blonde types. If it only costs us $100-$200 I would think it would be worth it...

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24-06-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimberwyn View Post
So if we book the girl a hotel and give her $50 for gas will that cover the expenses?

We're in a very small market and I'm looking for TWO girls with a specific look (high fashion look) for our magazine cover, and I'm getting frusterated because the magazine owner doesn't want to pay for girls to come from LA (which is 1.5 hours away). All of the girls here are cheesy commercial "pretty" or overprocessed blonde types. If it only costs us $100-$200 I would think it would be worth it...

I think it would depend on the girls and the agencies, but considering it is a cover try, that is very good exposure for a model, so if you are covering their basic expenses like that and make a fuss over them with a great team, snacks and good times on set, I don't see it being a negative experience for them at all in the end. Good luck!

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25-06-2011
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I've worked on several photoshoots (for small niche magazines, not their first issue, because the agencies want to see the magaine in production and also need to see the quality of the photogtrapher's work, before they release models for shoots like this), where the models were unpaid, and they had to travel up to 2 hours each way to the location (often, way out in the desert, at the beach or in the mountains) and they were able to get them from L.A. agencies ... without paying expenses.

But, usually the crew and models meet in a central place and caravaned to the location which was way out there. So some of the transportation was provided for the models ... they just had to drive to the central meeting place. Photographers, Stylists, and Makeup artists usually have at least a good sized SUV or a van because they all carry their own equipment. They will usually transport a model or two, if needed.

And lunch and snacks must be provided and lots of water ... that's a given on any shoot ... for the entire crew. It's all brought out to the location, usually by whoever is in charge of the shoot. Even if it's in a studio ... food and water must be provided ... or you will loose your crew and get less done, because they'll stop and go for lunch somewhere ... and will still expect the magazine to pay.

I've found that the models will drive a long way, if their agency wants them to get the pictures and the credits. So it comes down to quality of the photographer's work, the quality and circulation of the magazine.

Magazine shoots are not known for paying much, if anything ... so agencies are used to this. Editorial shoots are an investment in her marketing matierials.

So the criteria is not pay ... its the following: will this shoot help their portfolio, will the shots be astounding and something that will work for her market, will the tear sheet (or cover) be worth her time, is the publication a quality one, how well known is the magazine? All you have to do is to proove to the agent that this is going to be great so they want to have their girls on that cover and you will be able to select from some decent fashion girls and they will find a way to get where you need them.

Plus ... just because an agency is in L.A. ... it doesn't mean their girls all live in L.A. You will find girls from Redlands, San Diego, Santa Barbara. If they are newer models and not well known, then already have been told that they will have to drive to where the shoots are and where the clients need them to be and that is one of the costs of doing business. (Models actually are self employed, their agencies work for them.) Anything within a couple hours drive from the agency can be considered "local", in my experience... and an overnight stay would not be warranted for models, who don't have to set up and prep in advance. You should be able to get a cover shoot and up to about 4 pages of editorial shots done within 8 hours ... maybe faster if it's planned out carefully in advance.

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Last edited by BetteT; 25-06-2011 at 02:40 PM.
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26-06-2011
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^Thanks guys for your input, very enlightening as always! I'm still really intimidated by the LA agencies though lol, espcially since we're not even in SD or SB....we're in bakers field :s and our town does not have a good rep in general.

"You should be able to get a cover shoot and up to about 4 pages of editorial shots done within 8 hours"

Okay, good to know, because I was going to try and get the whole thing done in one day lol.

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07-07-2011
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This thread is amazing!! I learn so many great things here, who helped grow my knowledge!! Thanks everyone!!


Last edited by imagensfashions; 07-07-2011 at 10:31 PM.
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