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15-04-2012
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Originally Posted by cologne_rocks View Post
^ Agencies pay for nothing. They just borrow you the money, and then they will reduce the expenditures they made for you once you earn money. A model is always in the debts in the beginning of her career because the agency pays for your online book, printed book, compcards, travel cots and so on.
As for young models... No agencies usually don't ask parents to pay. If it was like that, there wouldn't be any models from Eastern Europe. During fashion week the agency would advance the money for flight tickets and hotel rooms. For campaign/catalogue bookings, the client would have to bear the costs.
Okay. Another question do agents travel with models, does anyone travel with models especially if she is switching agencies abroad or signing to other agencies abroad in the start of her career?

So all clients pay for model's travels cause I know if I wanted to hire a fashion photographer they don't pay for their travels but ask you to do that when you want them to travel to different locations. So it's the same with models.

When it comes to fashion shows you said agencies would advance flight tickets and hotel rooms- is this only for newcomers or all models?

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15-04-2012
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Originally Posted by Mariann View Post
Okay. Another question do agents travel with models, does anyone travel with models especially if she is switching agencies abroad or signing to other agencies abroad in the start of her career?
Nope .... if the model is underage, the parent usually travels with them or signs a release.

Quote:
clients pay for model's travels cause I know if I wanted to hire a fashion photographer they don't pay for their travels but ask you to do that when you want them to travel to different locations. So it's the same with models.
Sometimes clients pay ... if the client really wants that specfic model for their shoot and she in not living near the location of the shoot. This would apply for well known, top models and clients with big budgets. However, some clients don't want to or cannot afford to pay all those expenses ... so they might hire local models instead.

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When it comes to fashion shows you said agencies would advance flight tickets and hotel rooms- is this only for newcomers or all models?
It's a risk for the agency to advance money ... so it depends on the show (has to be a very high profile designer). But usually not newcomers ... unless that newcomer was a Kate Moss or something like that and the agency thought the model had the potential for a well paid career. So ... like everything at a modeling agency ... it all depends on the cost and the possible payoff to the agency. If they don't think it would payoff, then they won't advance the money.

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Last edited by BetteT; 15-04-2012 at 01:50 PM.
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15-04-2012
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This thread makes modelling seem so bad.. and in financial trouble. What advice is there for aspiring models and positive things to help them because maybe their dream is to become a model and to be financially secure and enjoy their lives.
What financial advice, what steps can they take, how can they avoid these risks and problems?

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15-04-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariann View Post
This thread makes modelling seem so bad.. and in financial trouble. What advice is there for aspiring models and positive things to help them because maybe their dream is to become a model and to be financially secure and enjoy their lives.
What financial advice, what steps can they take, how can they avoid these risks and problems?

Modelling does really not guarantee financial security. When you start to model for clients who actually pay, it can take up to 8 or 9 months until the money arrives on your bank account... Money transfers are extremely slow in the fashion industry. And the average high fashion model (I'm not talking about the popular ones) has hard times to pay her rent from modelling, anyways, so for most potentials it remains some kind of lifestyle they enjoy until their modelling contracts expire. Most young models do it for fun and excitement, they want to travel the world a little bit...

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15-04-2012
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This thread is about modeling as it really is .... not as the "fun and glamorous" job that most wannabes think it is.

And yes ... modeling is a huge financial risk for new models .... because most models never make it to the big time and most leave the business in debt. The only way to avoid all risk is to not go into modeling at all.

To minimize the risk, a model must first understand any contract that she's asked to sign. She should ask a lot of questions about it ... maybe even take it to an attorney to explain it all to her ... before she signs. She must have funds to cover her costs in the bank ... and have another way to support herself while she starts up her "business" .... many models do temp work, or wait tables .... jobs where they can have flexible hours which allows them to go on casting calls and take a modeling job here or there. They are better off if they are living with parents ... to save living expenses ... and the parents can help them stay grounded (it's a tough, tough business where they must smile while they are being verbally criticized by agents and potential clients) and safe.

Of the thousands of new models every year ... probably only a handful get to move up to lucrative paying jobs ... the ad campaigns ... maybe only one or two a year. Editorial and fashion shows don't usually pay the bills ... they are primarily the way she is "marketed" so that hopefully, high end clients will notice her and hire her for a campaign ... they don't pay much at all.

And I would say if a model doesn't start getting good paid jobs within about a year, she probably doesn't have "what it takes" and she should cut her losses and get out. A modeling career is usually over within about 5 or 6 years anyway ... with a very few exceptions.



The odds are against all new models, right from the beginning.

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Last edited by BetteT; 26-04-2012 at 03:12 PM.
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15-04-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cologne_rocks View Post
Most young models do it for fun and excitement, they want to travel the world a little bit...

Exactly.

that's the social reason which also makes that modeling is mainly an affair of south american and eastern girls, usually poor (there are exception of course).
Modeling is not " a risk" for those girls, as basically in their country they have nothing anyway.
for a girl in a western country, who can have student hollyday jobs not bad paid, who can travel the world for holldays every year thanks to her parents, who has parents who can pay them good studies... to try modeling with the very very litlle chance of real success which the rule in this business, it just doesnt worth it.

for an eastern or brasilian girl, even it fails on the money side, the "model way of life" is something good enough to motivate her to try.

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15-04-2012
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Bette T you can't say that modelling lasts 5 or 6 years, have you seen Claudia Schiffer, Kate Moss, Chirsty Turlington, Gisele, Isabeli Fontana, etc.. these careers seem to last until they are about 40 lol. Also you never answered my question properly. Is your answer to most things in life walk out and don't fight for what you really want. Are we really going to tell aspiring models whether male or female, whether young or in their early twenties don't get into modelling, don't pursue your dream? If a model is smart then I am sure there is a way for them to be able to minimise the risks.

What about Natalia Vodianova she was poor when she first entered into modelling, she got a lot of shows and a lot of work, clearly she made money through that.

The way I saw things was that as a model... if an agent sees you and you look quirky they will take you on and they will establish your cards, polaroids and arrange for test shoots. It's important and every agency must do these things. Photographers work with agencies and they get called in for work... they must get paid and the agency pays them. I spoke to one photographer who walked into a very top agency and asked if he could take photos of the models there. He has worked with a lot of newcomers and hardly any models from the top end of fashion. He works with the agency... surely the agency pays him for his work... how else will he make money.

Unfortunately the agencies are rarely scouting and taking on any models. I have witnessed this and have evidence to prove it. It is down to the recession and down to the agencies unwilling to invest in model's portfolios. Agents may be responsible for getting the model work, finding suitable work for her, recommending her to clients or when clients ask... putting her forward to them. How else would they make their money if they didn't take 20% of the model's earnings. I am pretty sure it is investment in the models if they believe in the model... of course they will invest in her. I am pretty sure I heard about agencies helping models move to other cities and have their own apartments there when they start out... it's called belief... of course the model will pay them back for this and this is what you call a loan however this is very different from the investment they make and paying photographers to establish their test shoots which then become their portfolios.

It is best for models to become self reliant, work with a top fashion photographer and establish a portfolio because this should help the agencies to take them on. The agent is likely to take her on as there is no investment. The model may decide she wants to apply to agencies across the globe, she should have money of her own in order to that and it pays for travels. Most agencies won't advise the model to apply to agencies across the globe probably because they might have to either invest or loan the costs to her. I understand that.

When it comes to jobs.. The model should make sure she knows who she is working for. Models get called or agents find model's work. It's based on luck or what ever but each job will pay the model... each even editorial job or ad campaign will pay the model. Anything that involves working with a photographer might not pay because this might be to establish her portfolio or might be for the photographers work. Photographers are about building their portfolios, they want to get work unless you are a photographer who has a lot of money or is shooting for a campaign, etc. All models get paid from each job, unless she is some how deceived and they don't pay her for the job but I think from watching a documentary these jobs don't publish the work and are the ones I saw were in Tokyo never mind the fashion capitals. Models might not earn a whopping million dollars or what ever from an editorial magazine but they get something, they do get even that small amount of money. Runway shows do pay models, I have heard Natasha Poly is paid for hers so why wouldn't all the other models be paid for the shows. Are not designers booking models and having to pay them as part of their business, they might very well book the models through the agencies. I might find out exactly how that works but the designers do pay the models. The agencies state in their terms that the clients pay the agency and the agency pays the models. If you want I can find that policy


Last edited by Mariann; 15-04-2012 at 03:30 PM.
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15-04-2012
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There that should have cleared out a lot of air out for everyone . Let's be a happy thread and not all put the negatives out. Do any of you work with agencies or in the fashion industry lol and I don't just mean work in fashion, I mean in the real industry?

I just looked at your profile BetteT and honestly it's nice to see you are a stylist, not sure if you do make up also or just fashion and I hope you are doing well and everything in your work but you work in Los Angeles and that's like a place for fashion but more like for celebrities, there are no opportunities for fashion models there. Of course you get models and there are many agencies there but it's like working in Barcelona... what much work can a model get from there. It's not a fashion capital so I am wondering if the information you hold is coming from what it is like in Los Angeles for a model cause every city is different of course. Different pay, different agencies. Different clients. You know you wouldn't have any models to style if you would say models should avoid modelling to minimise the risks. I don't mean to sound offensive to you at all cause I hate to upset anyone. I hope you understand what I mean cause maybe some people really want to get into modelling and though there are challenges they can be overcome. I hope to see you work with celebrities too


Last edited by Mariann; 15-04-2012 at 03:40 PM.
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15-04-2012
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Mariann , no offense, but your last post show you are completly missinformed about the whole things work.
or at least you dont realise things works completely differently at each level of modeling, if u take top agencies, or mid level agencies, for exemple, it is already completely different.

I will just take few things you said, but i could say the same for almost each of your claims.
"agencies are rarely scouting"...you're kidding i guess. all big agencies spend every year huge budget for scouting, they pay their scout to travel all over the world, they give budget to mother agencies to secure first options on new faces they found etc...

"most agencies wont advise the model to apply abroad", there u completly dont understand that 90% of models has a mother agency, sometimes it is directly one of the big agency, it happens. And the girl dont need to apply abroad, if she has potential, her agenct will automatically use all oprtinitie to develop her all over the world. NY agencies use to use europe to develop girls, paris agencies including the like of IMG, use market like greece, turkey, asia, to develop their girls too , and when the girls is ready of course they will use London and NY beside..
if an agency wants to make money, the girls must go the higher possible, and at top level it of course pass at a moment by some success in all the major cities, and the agency will of course care about that for the girl!

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15-04-2012
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Mariann, I don't mean it in a offensive way but you cleary dont know how this business works. The industry is obsessed with fresh, unknown faces for years. Women Management Milan (!) and IMG Paris for example are bursting with new recruitments, and the girls you see on the agencies' development boards are just the top of the iceberg since they have an endless amount of newfaces on option / not on their websites yet. I agree with the lines that BetteT dropped here, and yes, careers have been getting drastically shorter over the past years like. You can hardly compare them to careers of Kate Moss (seriously!) or Claudia Schiffer. back then in the 90s there were only a handful of models working successfully, that was the phenomen of the supermodels, today hundreds so called "top models" have to share the jobs. Back in the 90s there was not this "newface obsessions" because scouting worked differently (technically). Agents had not the chance to introduce their models to the big agencies like Elite as quickly and efficiently as today because there was no internet, they were waiting months upon months until a scout from abroad walked in their office to see potential girls and with a bit luck recruit them. Today an agent can discover a girl, and literally place her an hour later with a few digitals, an internet connection, and a contact at a international agency available. And many scouting agencies work like this already. You don't even need a portfolio these days to get placed at a top agency in NY, a few digitals are enough if the girl looks good.
Oh, and Asia is a main market these days, quite nice in terms of cash also because most Asian agencies provide relatively lucrative guarantees there

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16-04-2012
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Unfortunately this has become the worst thread ever on the Fashion Spot because it's so negative... now I am being criticised for not knowing what I am talking about. I have my own personal experience and evidence to back up what I am talking about. Agencies rarely scout... evidence... their books are not updated weekly... it's more like every few months. Agencies invest in models to pay their photographers... I spoke to photographers and they do get paid by the agency... these photographers work with the agency. There is a policy on the site of the agencies that clients must pay for travels of the model and pay to the agency who take their commission and give to the model. Every model gets paid for a job... there was a documentary that showed one model who never got paid... the photos were not published. Everything I said is true otherwise I would not have said it... I don't say things of which I want to believe... I find the evidence.

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16-04-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariann View Post
]Agencies rarely scout... evidence... their books are not updated weekly... it's more like every few months. [/B]

no sense. why it would be? Like cologne said, there are plenty of girls in development in agencies who are not even on their web site.
Why, because from a professiobnal point of view, the web site is absolutly useless. Do u think Russel Marsh check every week agensies web site to find new face he would like to see? of course no, if IMG find a pearl that they think might be good for him, they will organise a personal apointement between the girl and him, and the girl even dont need a single picture for that!
so your "evidence" is rather poor i would say. For more serious "evidence", i can tell you that the very last days, IMG scout was in estonia around the 10th in Latvia around the 12th, in Lithuania around the 15th and is right now in Poland...and yes, this has some "cost" for them to send scout like that all over the world...

test photographers are paid? well, partly yes. usually the agency will give to the girl one paid test, and 2-3 free test that they will keep if only pictures good enough. so let's say on 3 photographers working for a new faces, 2 will work for free, one wil get paid. but paid what? about peanuts, around 150-200 euros at best, hardly enough for any photgrapher to make a living of it.

as an "evidence" you are completly outr of reality, look at the list of girls you wrote kate moss, claudia schiffer...so these started about 20 years ago, in twenty years, how many THOUSANDS of girls has been signed to agencies? and on thousands, how many percent made any money of it? probably even not 20%, how many reached the level of the ones you mentioned, maybe 1%.

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16-04-2012
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Bette T you can't say that modelling lasts 5 or 6 years, have you seen Claudia Schiffer, Kate Moss, Chirsty Turlington, Gisele, Isabeli Fontana, etc.. these careers seem to last until they are about 40 lol.
these models are exceptions to the rule. We are talking about the everyday models here ... not supermodels.
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Also you never answered my question properly. Is your answer to most things in life walk out and don't fight for what you really want. Are we really going to tell aspiring models whether male or female, whether young or in their early twenties don't get into modelling, don't pursue your dream? If a model is smart then I am sure there is a way for them to be able to minimise the risks.
You asked how to minimize the risks. Simply stated: If you want no risk don't do it. I also listed a few things that an aspiring model could do to help herself while she was starting up this new businees of modeling in order to minimize the risks of loosing money. I answered your question truthfully, but I am sorry that I cannot not give you the answer you want to hear.

I'm not going to address the rest .... other than than, statistically, most new faces do not make it. I don't say don't try ... all I'm am saying is just educate yourself and then take your chances, if you decide it's worth the risk to you.

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Last edited by BetteT; 17-04-2012 at 12:06 AM.
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16-04-2012
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. I have my own personal experience and evidence to back up what I am talking about. ...... Everything I said is true otherwise I would not have said it... I don't say things of which I want to believe... I find the evidence.
CologneRocks and frittmayo both work for agencies ... and I'm a fashion stylist who works with models, photographers, clents and agencies.

You asked about my background, obviously to check my credentials because I'm from L.A. Just so you know ......

I am a fashion stylist. I do not work with celebrities. And yes, L.A. does have a fashion industry ... right behind Miami and New York ... it's just not couture. But I do work with agency models ... Ford, Wilhemina, Elite, Next, L.A. Models, Click, Q ... to name a few. And I work with local designers on their advertising and they use these agency models. But I've also worked with photographers and clients who came from New York and Paris.

And I've had the pleasure of doing a portfolio shoot for a senior model who was still working and making a rate of way over $5,000 a day, Vibeka. Her claim to fame was being discovered by Eileen Ford (in person ... not a scout) in Demark (and she was still with Ford 30 years later), and she was the subject of an iconic /very famous 1975 photo taken by Helmut Newton (an extremely high fashion and famous photographer) where she was wearing an YSL "Le Smoking" tuxedo in a dark Paris street. She's seen it all .... and because we spent a lot of time togoether she told me a lot of stories about how it used to be and how it's very different today.


So ... yeah ... I work with fashion models, I am in the fashion industry and I do know what I'm talking about.

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Last edited by BetteT; 16-04-2012 at 02:41 PM.
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16-04-2012
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In local markets of germany, holland, belgium maybe one of seven photographers is paid for test shootings.. But never more than 300 euros... Mother agents hardly use photographers who expect to get money in return because why should they pay for something they get for free in better quality when they send their models to London or Paris.
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