[DanceFashionista]

Huge Mistake VS.
Posted via Mobile Device

[modevogue]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Littleathquakes Soon to be joined by Barbara P too.

Well, Barbara pretty much confirms it at the beginning of this video:

[alonsoJonathan]

lol Barbara. she should let her looks talk

[happycanadian]

it's TOO MANY Angels. gaaah!!

even in GQ magazine, this month with Beyonce on the cover and the tag (the 100 Hottest Women of the Decade), they make a mention of VS Angels in a negative light:

(this is paraphrased, as i don't have the magazine in front of me)...

"Remember when you used to know all of the Victoria's Secret Angels? You'd recognize their curves and their faces as well as their famous names? Tyra, Heidi, Gisele ... Now, there are too many and they're all unrecognizable from one another - more famous for their Native Headdresses than their sexy photoshoots".

basically it was essentially something to that effect, though i'm sure someone here has the issue and can post it word for word.

i think there's so much truth to this. being a VS "Angel" has definitely lost it's lustre and impact when there are just SO many who are wearing the title.

Right at this moment, what's the lineup of girls who are continually cited as being "Angels"?

Adriana
Alessandra
Miranda
Doutzen
Candice
Lily
Erin
Lindsay
Behati

and now add to that

Karlie
Barbara
Lais
Toni
the other pretty blonde one with the nose, can't remember her name right now.


i mean, it's a ludicrous number. i can't even keep track of them. lol.

i understand completely that the company has grown a massive amount since 10 years ago, and there are many and more press events that require some contract girl and perhaps there just isn't time for a few of them to cover everything. but, in my opinion, they need to regroup and have their CORE GROUP of 5 Angels. have it be entirely completely clear that they are the ANGELS and that everyone else is just a models who they hire for a promotional thing or for catalogue work.

the game has changed over the past few years. social media is huge and the opportunities are limitless to a girl who wants to be really famous. the key thing about the Angels they hire is that they have to be absolutely driven to be individual brands in and of themselves. if VS wants to have a genuine superstar model again, the she'll have to be as ambitious as Heidi or Tyra or Gisele. she'll have to want to party with celebrities and be a celebrity herself. she'll have to make appearances on tv shows and host award ceremonies and do the talk show circuit. and many of the current VS models have done a bit of that, but they tend to come across as a bit bland, or rehearsed or just boring. you need FIRE. and comedy. and smarts. and something distinct about your personality and your brand.

IN MY OPINION, this is what should happen moving forward:

and it's time to let Adriana and Alessandra go. they're both legendary representatives for the brand and they both still look gorgeous and have many and more fans on this site who will disagree with me (i'm even a huge fan of them both, and have been for many years). but, i think everyone has a time when they can bow out. Heidi did it. Tyra did it. Gisele did it. it's been over a decade of working with VS. it's time.

Doutzen is looking the best she has in years. she's stunning. she's great for VS and has been great for them. but do people know her outside of fashion followers? has she really transcended into "STAR" the way that Heidi, Tyra, Gisele or Adriana have? no, not really. and i think she wants to, but i just don't think it's gonna happen. or it would have at some point over her extensive fashion and VS career.

and Miranda doesn't want to be there. you can tell! time. to. go. plus, she's utterly mindless in interviews. i love her as a model and i appreciate her street style, but seriously, she's not winning anyone over with her interviews.

Lindsay? she's been with VS for several years now and hasn't made even the slightest impact. bye bye.

Erin is beautiful, but she's dull and really only got famous for dating Leo. next.

Lily was fun and cool, but same thing -- contract Angel for years now and zero impact. adios señorita.

Lais is ridiculously pretty, but often her pictures are dull and have no energy. also, she's just not a personality. she isn't gonna be a STAR. if she were going to, we would've seen some hint of it by now.

SO, who stays?

Candice
Behati
Karlie
Barbara

and add one more:

Joan Smalls.

i know many of you will disagree with me, and that's awesome -- please, argue and debate and let me read your reasonings. this is a discussion forum; let's discuss! haha.

here are my reasons for the girls i've chosen.

CANDICE:

she really IS the current star of VS. her personality is more on the quiet side and i don't think she wants to be a big mega-brand. but she's absurdly hot, she's got the best body possible, she is ambitious in her fashion career, and she'll really take off once she's the sorta "head angel".

BEHATI:

famous boyfriend; check. great body; check. rock chic vibe; check. indie cool factor; check. she's really come into her own for the brand. she's got a different kinda energy and has that cool, hipster kinda sexiness that's natural and effortless.

KARLIE:

many people here and probably everywhere feel like she doesn't look the part. and there may be some truth to that. but, the girl IS. A. STAR. she's insanely driven. she wants to be a legit Supermodel. she is already branding out into hosting things. and she's versatile and interesting to look at. she doesn't blend into the crowd. she is the one who can take a VS contract and make it huge.

BARBARA:

she's still young. her youth and naivety is evident when she's interviewed or caught by paparazzi, but her pics for VS are utterly smouldering. she harkens back to Laetitia Casta. she has a body that straight men adore. trust me when i say that she will save the brand's appeal with men. she's just sultry. no getting around it. and in a couple of years, when she's super famous, she'll be even hotter.

JOAN SMALLS:

already a fashion superstar. she's American. she's creating her own brand. she has a fantastic personality and an awesome body and that face is stunning. i think she could be the most successful crossover fashion/commercial non-caucasian supermodel since Tyra.


NOW,

the only thing this formula is missing is the BAD GIRL. i mean, someone who just has a bit of a trampy, edgy, unguarded, wild-child aura. seriously - VS needs a Megan Fox kinda Angel. the "Naughty Angel". i've no idea if there's a working model out there who has this kinda vibe, i can't think of one off the top of my head. VS kinda had it with Rosie, but she split. any suggestions?

there are tons of great other models that we all love who will obviously continue to shoot for the catalogues and do the runway show and attend some events. they'll have some "Pink Girls", who are contracted that way. and they'll use Edita and Marloes and Magdalena and the ever-enduring-Izabel and a ton of other hot ladies for these purposes. but they won't be the SPOKESMODELS; the Angels.

[alonsoJonathan]

Quote:

the only thing this formula is missing is the BAD GIRL. i mean, someone who just has a bit of a trampy, edgy, unguarded, wild-child aura. seriously - VS needs a Megan Fox kinda Angel. the "Naughty Angel". i've no idea if there's a working model out there who has this kinda vibe, i can't think of one off the top of my head. VS kinda had it with Rosie, but she split. any suggestions?

Freja,Saskia Etc Etc

has Karlie done any press for VS? any events?


TBH i feel NOTHING FOR Behati.
i feel all the angels look to "american" u dont really have any exotic beauty ala Adriana/Ale/Karolina. Maybe only Barbara has a unique beauty n sometimes Candice when u pay attention. but Behati is really boring IMO

n TBH i dont think joan is intereste in becoming a VS angel ATM.

[tlg00]

Quote:

Originally Posted by happycanadian she has a body that straight men adore. trust me when i say that she will save the brand's appeal with men.

This has been said numerous times in the various incarnations of this thread, and it now bears repeating.

Victoria's Secret is basically a company for women. It appears that some men are having great difficulty accepting that reality, but that is what it is. Sure, a few men may buy the products for a significant other, but women are the ones that are the key consumers. Women are the key demographic. Women are the main ones that they are selling to.

The GQ comments aren't even worth breaking down because it's coming from a malecentric, male-oriented viewpoint which takes a backseat to Victoria's Secret primary objective to sell their products to women.

Here's how it kind of works for women:

- Victoria's Secret makes a pretty bra.
- Woman sees pretty bra in a catalogue.
- Woman buys pretty bra.
- Woman buys the panties to match the pretty bra.
- Woman buys the garter set or other accessories to match the pretty bra.
- Woman buys other items from Victoria's Secret.
- Woman becomes a regular consumer of Victoria's Secret products.
- Woman falls victim to the angel card nonsense.
- Woman eagerly awaits the semi-annual sale.
- Woman gets positively giddy over pretty bras for $19.00 and $3.00 lotions at the semi-annual sale. - Oh, that's just me? I digress.

Here's how it kind of works for men:

- Victoria's Secret makes a pretty bra.
- Man sees pretty bra in a catalogue.
- Man drools over the model wearing the pretty bra.
- Man flips to the next page.
- Man sees pretty bra in a catalogue.
- Man drools over the model wearing the pretty bra.

... and so on, so forth.

As women, as consumers, the person modeling the pretty bra might be appealing, but ultimately, a pretty bra is a pretty bra, and if a woman wants that pretty bra, then the model wearing it is irrelevant.

Now is a nice time to bring back Ed Razek's quote from the Elle article from a couple of years ago:

"We honestly don't worry about whether men visit the stores or even have a point of view about the brand," says Ed Razek, the chief marketing officer for parent company Limited Brands. "There's a popular perception that we're positioning it to fraternity houses when in fact it's exactly the opposite. I really don't take a minute to think about how we appeal to men. It's just not relevant."

Translation: A bunch of men complaining that they don't think the angels are hot and sexy. Boo hoo. Cry me a river, tie a rock to your complaints, and let it swim with the fishes.

[Rosary]

Potato

^ Seriously, I agree with you.

Then there are the fan of VS (men and women), they want to look to hot girls in the catalogs. But they are not consumers... Do you think the owners of the brand will dismiss Karlie because fans do not like her? If in the end they do not buy anything.

C'mon, women who want to buy underwear will not be set in the model, whether it's sexy or not, if it's ugly or not... I hope I expressed myself well my English is not very good lol.

[theBlueRider]

Well, in response to some of the points made in the above posts, models make an impact when shopping online or via catalog. I guess if you live in one of the many suburbs or rural towns in America, sometimes it's not always easy to make it to the mall so you have to go by what's shown in the picture.

There have been too many times when I see an item, not just a bra, on a model and it's ill fitting or I find something about her very unattractive or off putting and I decide not to purchase it. But then I see it on another model who shows off the item better and is more attractive or sets the mood better and I'm catapulted into a "should I buy" situation.

There were also times when I was shopping at VS and I pass over a color or a style at the store or online. But then a few weeks later they put up pictures of a different model wearing it and I reconsider the color or style and go into the store looking for it to try on...

An item's presentation can go a very long way and that includes consideration of the way it fits the model, the model's coloring, the vibe/setting of the product and the model herself. I fell hard for the "Go East!" collection of the Dream Angels line and the "London in Love" collection this past summer and bought almost all the colors. I even hunted two colors down that I couldn't see in store. And looking back, it was because the pictures were really dreamy and Erin translated the line very well.

Something similar happened with items from the Designer Collection this past fall. There were some bra sets that Barbara modeled and I was dying to get them. The pieces weren't available in any store around me. But I saw a few girls wearing them at VSFS and it was ill-fitting on them which killed my lemming. Looking back, Barbara made those lingerie sets look good, flattering and luxurious which is why I wanted them. But the other models made it look poorly constructed and not supportive.

[happycanadian]

tlg -- i think you raise an very interesting point about the brand not catering to a male demographic. and i had never read that quote from Ed Razek before, and it's quite a fascinating one ... though i'm not certain i believe him, entirely. i think he has his ideas and obviously he has alot of control, but he also exaggerates with fair frequency in order to get his point across. what they care about, at the end of the day, is $ALES and also exposure and cultural relevance. and though the company has gotten larger and so sales are probably on the up -- i think it's fair to say that exposure and cultural relevance are higher when they have a SUPERSTAR model as an Angel. clearly, their main target is women - as they're selling exclusively female products - but for a model to be a legit superstar, she has to also appeal to men. the biggest models that VS has ever had (Tyra, Heidi, Laetitia, Stephanie, Gisele, Adriana) have all had a very high appeal to the "GQ" demographic. and it's a win-win situation. so - straight from Ed Razek's mouth, he said himself that they are only striving to capture the women's demographic ... but it's also unarguable that a model doesn't really get BIG unless she's got the men fancying her, as well. and i can't imagine VS not wanting a BIG model representative as their Angel.

i also think that i failed to write about the women's perspective because ... well, i guess cause i'm not a woman. lol. but, i believe you'll find that the models i chose as my ideal Angels would also translate very well to women. Candice is sweet and bubbly and aspirational in her fitness and breezy nature. Behati is cool and i think many women would wanna hang out with her/be her friend. Karlie clearly has a wide appeal - she's confident and fun and unique and doesn't fit the idea of what a VS Angel should look like, and women can get on board with that idea and support her. Barbara is the one that women would want to embody, she's the one where they'd be like, "omg. she looks so sensual and hot in that bra, i must have it!" and Joan has this face that is both very beautiful (in a familiar way, too - she's sorta a Beyonce/Tyra hybrid. lol) but also very warm and friendly and approachable.

[nrllaless]

Separating the fashion following part of myself from the female part, lol, I have to say that when it actually comes to buying a VS bra, I could care less who's modeling it. I'm more concerned with fit, quality, and support.

I think I've mentioned elsewhere in the thread, that quite frankly VS needs to focus on its product. Practically EVERY bra in the stores is a pushup bra. Even the sports bras are pushups. It's rather frustrating. And not only are they pushup, a lot of them are these ridiculous add two cup size pushups.

VS claims they aren't marketing to men, well, they sure aren't marketing to the everyday women who they supposedly want to purchase their merchandise.

[Littleathquakes]

Quote:

Originally Posted by modevogue Well, Barbara pretty much confirms it at the beginning of this video:

yup that's where i got it from.

[MsMornings]

Quote:

Originally Posted by happycanadian i also think that i failed to write about the women's perspective because ... well, i guess cause i'm not a woman. lol. but, i believe you'll find that the models i chose as my ideal Angels would also translate very well to women.

I guess there is not "The women's perspective". I don't care about any of the girls you want to be Angels and love those you find dull.
Many of the other female members will probably agree with you.

For you Lindsay hasn't made even the slightest impact, for me she's the girl who first got me interested in VS, even though the German media have been trying to shove down Heidi (and to a lesser extent the other old Angels) down my throat for years.

I also like Erin and Lily quite a lot.

But I also know that I'm one of very few Fashion Spot members who has always liked the new(er) Angels.
Seems to be a general TFS thing that if many members call a model "pretty but boring" there's a big chance I'm going to like her.
Maybe that's just my type.

Considering that Erin/Lindsay still work for VS a lot I can't be the only one liking them though.

I agree that there are to many Angels at the moment, but then again I would rather have many Angels including my favorites than a handful of girls I don't find interesting at all.
Maybe that justifies the rising number of VS Angels at least a little. The more Angels the bigger the chance that every potential customer will at least find one he/she likes.


I agree with what theBlueRider said about the models having an impact on my buying decisions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theBlueRider There have been too many times when I see an item, not just a bra, on a model and it's ill fitting or I find something about her very unattractive or off putting and I decide not to purchase it. But then I see it on another model who shows off the item better and is more attractive or sets the mood better and I'm catapulted into a "should I buy" situation.

If the item looks not so good on the (highly photo-shopped) model, I'll usually think that it has to look even worse on me, so it's highly unlikely that I'll have a second look.

It also helps if I can somewhat relate to the model in terms of body type, skin-/hair-/eye-color etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nrllaless I think I've mentioned elsewhere in the thread, that quite frankly VS needs to focus on its product. Practically EVERY bra in the stores is a pushup bra. Even the sports bras are pushups. It's rather frustrating. And not only are they pushup, a lot of them are these ridiculous add two cup size pushups.

Another point I agree with. I've never been to a VS Store, but it's the impression I get watching the commercials.

Well, as long as VS does not open stores in Germany or at least a European Online-shop with lower shipping costs I won't buy any VS products anyway.
Why would they care what I think.

[Mermaid In Love]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juliax Well they did test Emily, she had a few vs pictures, so guess they were not impressed. But again I dont think Emily is the most gorgeous. Karlie may not have generic beautiful features but her inner sparkle and warmth is what makes her attractive. Beauty comes from inside. Thats very true. You may have nice features but if there is nothing behind the looks, its forgettable.

We all know that the question of beauty is subjective
It is not like everybody should think that she is the most gorgeous,but personally I think so
And you can`t say that Emily has no inner sparkle and warmth because first there are not many interviews with her and in general she doesn`t work a lot at all and second you don`t know her personally
And I don`t think that her beauty is generic,I think she is something special
exposay.com

[theBlueRider]

Actually, most VS bras are not padded. That's a huge misconception. They have a lot of unlined bras, lightly lined bras, lined demi cups and full coverage bras.

The bras that are heavily padded/push up style are advertised more in commercials and in stores because they have a higher retail price.

I think most women use the shopping techniques I described in my other post. Considering that most women are wearing the wrong bra size, a lot of women shop visually instead of physically (like trial and error).

I don't think female consumers care who has Angel status and who doesn't have Angel status. I think what matters more in terms of advertising is that whoever it is, the model sets the tone, mood and presents the product well to lure customers and translates positive feelings. I mean the whole point is to set off the "I want" and "ooohhh ahhhhh" feeling every few months and get women to buy new bras from each collection (even though female consumers may not need new bras).

I love Karlie as a HF model but she has been ripped apart the most on non-fashion women's lifestyle forums and blogs. I don't think she is as "women-friendly" as some may think and I mean, there's evidence of that. It's not just speculation. I think the average female consumer is looking for something very different from Karlie.

[Sweet rus]

I can't believe Karlie is an angel. And before I proceed and people start hating on me, I want to say I have nothing against Karlie and think she has a great body for fashion shows (very long and very slim), I also like her body language when she is being photographed (just cover her face please), plus her personality seems nice, positive and bright among other girls. But... I can't believe her success, I don't get how she might be an angel with a body and face of hers (and I don't even want to start talking about this awful haircut). When I saw her polaroids for the first time I thought "damn, legs...then omg, what a face...can she even be a model?" I don't want to sound negative but she probably has one of the most unattractive and unpretty faces among models ever. I try to find smth pretty about her but I can't no matter how hard I try. Even your untypical beauties like Kirsten and Saskia would make a better angel. It's not her fault, it's wonderful how much she could achieve but I will never get how and will never understand why VS made such a choice. But the company's choices have been very questionable these years. None of the newer girls are angel material except for Doutzen and Candice, they are extremely plain and forgetable. And please, don't tell me the company knows better what it's doing. It probably is but I don't care, I feel like I need to share my opinion (not that anybody cares but still I can't shut my mouth now). In my point of view VS angels should be smth out of ordinary, some beautiful, exotic creatures with almost unattainable proportions and figures, not the girls that I can see anywhere.