the Fashion Spot - Is Haute Couture still relevant in today's fashion industry?

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Is Haute Couture still relevant in today's fashion industry?

Hi everyone; Im in the final year of a fashion degree and currently writing my dissertation on Couture and its relevance in todays fashion industry. As part of my research Im asking my peers for their opinions - I would love to hear yours. Here are some questions to think about:

- do you think Couture is a necessary part of the fashion machine, or could the industry function without it? (the main arguement being that Couture shows 'sell a dream' and promote perfume & accessories sales)

- can the extravagance be justified in today's environmentally concious society?

- can unworn garments really be called 'fashion'? Collin McDowell writes in his book 'The designer scam'.. "...the business of dress design is just that: business. The only good dress, as the rag trade cynics well know, is the bought dress."

- Do any of you aspire to own/wear Couture? If you had the money, would you do so? (do you know how much it costs?)

- should there be a market level in between couture and r-t-w?

- can anyone forsee a time when Couture may die out?

I'm really interested to hear people's opinions... and please dont think this is an attempt to get other people to do my work, this is an important part of my primary research! If anyone wants to email me directly I'm gemma_diane@mac.com ....

This is a really great topic. Im a fashion student as well, and I was just reading about how most designers do not have couture lines, because it is just not cost effective. I mean think of the overhead of doing all custom made garments and how many people can really actually afford them. Really the only coutiere's left are there only because the label is still their like Dior and Chanel and they still make the majority of their money on ready to wear.

In the end though, I would love to own a piece of couture and by having a garmet made to fit you, you know that it will fit you just right. Also, they are the most beautiful of gowns and help set the standards from the only real couture that still exists, which is bridal wear.

You're right, it's not cost effective at all, infact Haute Couture typically loses the company money, which makes no business sense at all.

And your point about setting the standards is very relevant - even r-t-w isnt always as well made as you'd think - it's good to know that absolute perfection actually exists in clothing! - some of the techniques are truely amazing.

Does anyone have an opinion on Boudicca joining the Chambre Syndicale? I thought that was pretty interesting and Im trying to contact the company to find out why ...

- do you think Couture is a necessary part of the fashion machine, or could the industry function without it? (the main arguement being that Couture shows 'sell a dream' and promote perfume & accessories sales)

Imagine that haute couture as governed by the Fédération is suddenly banned. There would be a short-term jolt in various economies as that productivity stream dries out, and the trickle down would effect perhaps millions of people. Although the fashion industry would survive, people would suffer a huge loss that would be felt for many years given the complete value of haute couture.

The absence of haute couture would certainly create an amazing void. I wonder what people would do... work more locally? collaborate? It could be interesting.

- can the extravagance be justified in today's environmentally concious society?

No.

- can unworn garments really be called 'fashion'? Collin McDowell writes in his book 'The designer scam'.. "...the business of dress design is just that: business. The only good dress, as the rag trade cynics well know, is the bought dress."

I disagree that dress design is nothing more than business. Design is an individual, social expression, and business just happens to take advantage of the fact that some people just can't help but create and produce beautiful, interesting things! Business is simply going along for the ride.

- Do any of you aspire to own/wear Couture? If you had the money, would you do so? (do you know how much it costs?)

No, but I would go to the exhibitions. It's like going to the museum. I don't need to own the art - I can simply see it, be inspired, and go home to dream my own creative dreams. I go to the opera and bring home memories. Art is an experience for me, and owning it does not necessarily improve its value.

- should there be a market level in between couture and r-t-w?

Yes. I would like to be able to choose from clothes that are somewhat unfinished, then have a single fitting to tailor the piece. I do believe there is a global need for such services, and it would ensure that local tailors and dressmakers can make a decent living.

- can anyone forsee a time when Couture may die out?

I suspect that haute couture will die only when Paris is submerged.

I think Haute couture keeps the dreams of fashion alive in the heartland... Paris. Even if its nto business smart, it's integral for inspiration and imagination. Losing haute couture would be devastating..

Quote:

Originally Posted by gem437 (Post 3729184)

You're right, it's not cost effective at all, infact Haute Couture typically loses the company money, which makes no business sense at all.

I love haute couture and always read articles about it and as far as I´ve read, that money loosing reality is changing for couture houses, of course they do not make as much money as they do with ready to wear and they do help to promote secondary lines and all of that, but haute couture as a service still has a place on today´s society, Versace has doubled its orders since they started showing off cameras, Alexander Mcqueen makes 30 or so haute couture dresses each season to special clients, Elie Saab lives from haute couture, Dior and Chanel ateliers are usually at full capacity and so on, it seems there is a new wave of younger couture costumers coming thanks to the bloomig global economy and of course the nouveau riche, Chanel´s youngest client is 24 years old.

Regarding prices, couture pieces star at thirty thousand euros and run up to one hundred and fifty thousand or more, its price vary according to the amount of hours needed for the creation to be complete.

Interesting thread :flower:

Couture is like fashion's heartbeat. When it dies, fashion dies with it.

Maybe that's an overly dramatic way of looking at it, but imagine the fashion world without it. I think now more than ever, with the world becoming more and more bleak and practicality driven, couture is more important than it ever was. It really is an artform, meant to be appreciated, thought about, and preserved.

In a way, the demi-couture movement being pushed by the likes of Ghesquiere and Theyskens is that level between rtw and couture. Creating a piece that's so worked and detailed, but not as astronomical in costs and not made to fit the client is kind of like a modern approach to haute couture. It's still not entirely accessable, but it's certainly more approachable.

Believe me, if I could afford spending $100,000 on a dream purchase, I'd buy a couture creation, put it on a form and enjoy looking at it....

Imagine my surprise when I come to check TFS I see right here the exact research topic I'm doing for my International Baccalaureate Extended Essay! This is really cool!

Specifically, what do you think the consequences would be if we lost Haute Couture? Or, what exactly does Haute Couture DO for the industry? I would say that it's the innovator of the industry. In a way, it's like the lab, where new techniques, fabrics, ideas, etc. are developed. Would you say this is true? I can think of a few examples, most notably Dior HC SS 07 with the introduction of the technique of basically origami folding fabric, which John then diffused into Dior RTW FW 07 collection, which turned out to be one of the best shows of the season, set trends, etc. Any other specific examples of techniques, new products and/ or ideas that were developed in Couture and then effected tremendously the rest of the business?

Also, part of my argument is that, obviously, it is an art form, sometimes (usually, actually...) more so than RTW because it is not bound by the confines of whether or not it can actually be worn, and is, to quote Gwen Stefani on the issue, more like "an extension of the brain." So why is Couture questioned and not, say sculpture or painting or photography, which can also be very expensive, too?

Anther argument I was planning on making was that Couture keeps other art forms alive as well, and I don't mean the business of fashion as a whole, I was thinking more along the lines of, it keeps handicrafts from dying off. In a machine age world, it's a blessing really that there is couture, not only in the art of hand sewing, but the art of hand embroidery, millinery, shoe making, featherwork, fabric making, braid (...Signe Chanel, anyone?!). All these crafts would, I believe, if not for couture, cease to exist...they'd be taken over by machines. I mean, machines embroider ready to wear clothes, machines mass produce shoes, machines make fabric, so couture keeps these artists employed. So in a way, couture has a soul that ready to wear doesn't. Couture is MADE by PEOPLE...made perfectly, I might add, and RTW is made by a MACHINE. Any other ideas that come to mind with this topic?

Also, couture is capable of reflecting the times, but more importantly, it can CHANGE the times. Ie, Dior's New Look. Any other ideas regarding this point?

I guess my conclusion, or at least my belief, is that couture is the heart of fashion...it keeps the business moving forward. But my strongest belief is that couture offers many the chance to dream. Couture is what got me hooked on fashion in the first place (Dior HC FW 04, to be exact!), and it's couture that keeps me here. I don't know how to make that sound professional and convincing for an IB Extended Essay...but I think it's the most important point, really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike413 (Post 3730361)

Believe me, if I could afford spending $100,000 on a dream purchase, I'd buy a couture creation, put it on a form and enjoy looking at it....

:lol:Well said. I would also. ^_^:wub:

Couture is a dream. It's the root of everything else. It makes people dream. The world has always had "extravagance". Think of Louis XIV and Versailles.....royalty, celebrities. As much as I hate to think that Couture is created for them, it most often is. I love Couture more than anything because "eveything is allowed" (although I know there are MANY rules and regulations....I don't mean it in that sense). Beauty almost overlaps functionality. It really keeps fashion alive. It's meant to be admired (just like a beautiful painting) more than used. I cannot foresee a time when couture will die out.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by j´adore dior (Post 3730242)

thank you for this post - I wasnt aware that Couture actually made a profit at all. Do you have any specific articles you could share with me? It would be great to actually quote figures. How much do you know about Chanel's youngest client? where is she from and what is her background?

^Actually I think Chanel is one of the few houses that make a profit off couture. I can't imagine that Givenchy or Dior do, however.

In response to the question, I don't think it's relevant today. In the past it was able to set trends, but with it being shown months after the ready-to-wear show, the trends are already set out for the season, and couture rarely has anything to do with ready-to-wear theme-wise with the exception of Galliano's work.

However, I really wish couture could have an impact. The price, I think, is the biggest factor right now. Maybe bring the average price to a lower level. I think $15 grand is high enough for suiting, and $50,000 should be more than enough for an evening gown. The prices today are outrageously high! The couture houses shouldn't balk at the lack of sales when the prices rule out all but the richest. Givenchy has, what, 26 clients now? And this is supposed to have been great growth Tisci made.

Couture is dying. I believe it needs lower prices and an earlier show date to survive in today's world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gem437 (Post 3730596)

This article from the NY Times is quite illuminating, and it includes some pricing information.

I think Australia's Erica Packer neé Baxter is one young person who spends lavishly on haute couture. She wore Dior couture for her wedding. Click her name to see a wiki.page on her. :flower:

Quote:

The Hands That Sew the Sequins

Every day for the last three weeks in Montmartre, 45 seamstresses at the House of Lesage, France's oldest embroiderer, have been hunched over wooden frames feverishly stitching sequins, rhinestones and beads onto gossamer cloth. Their needlework is so intricate it seems spun from candied sugar. Defying the official French 35-hour workweek, they are rushing to finish some 50 designs for the spring haute couture shows, which begin on Monday.

The women are among the treasured "petites mains" (tiny hands), artisans who labor in workshops, that have changed little in a century, doing the elaborate handwork that transforms a designer's dress into a sumptuous showpiece of luxury. They make ornamental silk flowers, curling the edges with heated tools that look like lollipops. They fashion peau de soie evening sandals on custom lasts and stitch straw for hats and polish buttons shaped like bows and plate them in gold.

It is in part this handwork that explains why haute couture garments come with astronomical price tags: upward of $25,000 for a suit and $150,000 for an evening gown.

Toil and training alone do not account for the obsession with perfection. A sense of cultural patrimony also drives these artisans. "It's a culture, a philosophy," said François Lesage, 76, the dapper general director of the 125-year-old establishment, which he inherited in 1949 from his father, who bought it from the embroiderer for Charles Worth, the founder of French haute couture.

"It's a way to be dressed outside and inside," Mr. Lesage said. "It corresponds to a certain ethic of rigor and elegance without vulgarity."

Although it is not known how many artisans still work in France's haute couture industry, their numbers are dwindling. Especially diminished are the "fournisseurs," the artisans who work in outside workshops like Lesage, which specialize in a craft like embroidery or ornamental flower making. They supply the fashion houses still selling haute couture clothing - Chanel, Dior, Lacroix and a few others - with the decorative elements and accessories that complete an outfit.

It is handwork that defines haute couture as much as the three fittings required to custom-make a garment for a wealthy client. The dwindling number of regular clients, perhaps no more than a few hundred worldwide, explains why none of the fashion houses make money from couture - that and the expense of the fournisseurs.

None of the ateliers, or workshops, were willing to disclose what they charge the fashion houses, although one, the shoemaker Massaro, where 40 hours are needed for a pair of shoes, said retail customers for its shoes pay a minimum of $3,000. "But that's for two feet," said Raymond Massaro, 76, the founder's grandson, defending the price.

Since the 1920's, when there were about 10,000 French embroiderers, the population has shrunk to about 200, Mr. Lesage said. In St.-Junien, a small city near Limoges that is the historical site of glove production, there were 120 glove makers in the early 50's. Today only three remain, said Dimitri Soverini, a spokesman for Agnelle, a family-owned couture glove maker. In Paris 60 years ago, 300 people specialized in feather work. Today less than a handful still do.

And yet to view the handworkers as quaint anachronisms would be a mistake, say the defenders of French fashion. Their skills are still central to French design. "Louis IV's minister of finance Colbert said that fashion could be for France what the gold mines of Peru were to Spain," explained Valerie Steele, the director and chief curator of the Museum of the Fashion Institute of Technology. "Fashion isn't necessarily about concept but about craftsmanship. You need the people to make the best ribbon, the best lace, the best hats. This is essential to keeping French fashion prestigious and creative."

The number of artisans is diminishing for familiar reasons: the market for couture is contracting, crafts workers are dying off, a younger generation is unwilling to carry on family tradition, and cheaper labor is available overseas.

To guarantee the future of at least some artisans, Chanel has bought six of the oldest workshops that no longer have heirs to run them: Lesage; Massaro; Lemarié, a designer of flowers and feathers; Michel, a milliner; Desrues, a button- and costume jewelry maker; and most recently, Goosens, a goldsmith and silversmith. For the last four years Karl Lagerfeld, Chanel's designer, has paid tribute to the ateliers, which he dubbed the Chanel "satellites," by designing small clothing collections that showcase their handiwork. The most recent was shown in New York in December at the Chanel boutique on 57th Street.

Though Chanel subsidiaries, these ateliers can accept work from other houses and other clients. "Chanel bought us to preserve the knowledge and standard of what we do," said Tanguy de Belair, the chief operating officer of Michel. "They have the security of knowing they can get what they want from us, but they don't prevent us from working for others. We set our own prices. Lagerfeld tells us what to do for his show just as Marc Jacobs does for Louis Vuitton."

But not all designers are sanguine about the new ownership. Since Chanel bought Lesage in 2002, the American designer Ralph Rucci said, its work has at least quadrupled in cost, requiring him to be judicious in employing the venerable embroiderer and to branch out to other suppliers. At least one haute couture designer, Jean Paul Gaultier, has much of his handwork done in India.

On Rue Ste.-Anne, a street near the Palais-Royal once bustling with milliners, there is now only Michel, founded in 1936. The atelier employs 11 workers, who produce 4,000 hats annually. The process involves multiple steps: three seamstresses use a 19th-century sewing machine to stitch together strips of fine straw from Italy. Two hat makers add stiffeners to the straw and felt, blocking them with pins and strings on one of 3,000 wooden head forms. The hats are dried in a large oven to maintain their shape. Six milliners then assemble the brims and the crowns, garnishing them with ribbons, lace and tulle. And all of this starts from a mere sketch by a designer.

Overseeing the production is Nicole Todero, 54, who began in the trade at the urging of her father, a train conductor in Paris. He wanted his daughter, then 16, to work as a seamstress to help support the family of 11 children. In 1986, when the couture business was booming, Michel hired her and trained her in the techniques of haute mode.

Just as Michel is the last of a disappearing breed so, too, is Lemarié. Founded in 1880, the atelier is the sole remaining feather workshop on Rue du Faubourg St.-Denis, a street near the Gare du Nord once lined with similar establishments. The business was passed from generation to generation until André Lemarié (whose resemblance to Alfred Hitchcock has frequently been noted), retired in 2000.

The creative director, Eric Charles-Donatien, 33, was plucked from a job sewing men's wear for Hermès. "When I got here, the use of materials was very ladylike," he said. "I mixed the flowers and feathers together. I made the designs more abstract and concentrated on texture." "To make something more edgy I've ruched organza and shredded the edges to make them look like feathers, so you're not really sure what you're looking at."

Last fall, Kate Spade hired Lemarié to create fuchsia and black organza flowers when she introduced a small line of luxury bags and shoes called Collect, costing twice the price - $600 to $1,800 - of the regular Kate Spade line. "A lot of times you hear, 'No, this can't be done,' " she said. "But with Lemarié you hear what they can do. When they say, 'You can add this,' the work becomes a collaboration."

Having all of this expertise centralized in Paris allows designers to realize their creative dreams in ways unparalleled anywhere else in the world. For instance, it is common for Michel to send a hat to Lesage for embroidery and then to Lemarié for plumes and petals.

"It's like a laboratory," said Lars Nilsson, the designer for Nina Ricci in Paris, who uses the ateliers to add couture details to his ready-to-wear collection. "It's very Paris and quite unique because you have the connections and you can use two to three skills, like Lesage and Lemarié."

The demand for high fashion ready-to-wear in the last 15 years - made ever more deluxe by couture embellishments - has caused a business shift in many of the ateliers. At Lesage and Lemarié, for instance, 80 percent of the workmanship is done for ready-to-wear and 20 percent for haute couture. At Desrues, founded by Georges Desrues in 1929 in a workshop formerly at the edge of the Marais, the company has swelled from 20 employees in 1984 to 170 today. The original space could no longer accommodate the volume, so the workshop relocated in 1993 to an 86,000-square-foot, glass-and-steel, single-story factory in Plailly, an hour from Paris.

There, in addition to making costume jewelry for Louis Vuitton, Nina Ricci, Lanvin and Swarovski, Desrues produces a million buttons a year for Chanel alone, with only 3,000 used for haute couture.

Despite the volume the production process has not changed much. Artisans carve minutely detailed whimsical shapes like camellias, bows or miniature bottle caps into silicone prototypes, which are then cast into metal buttonmolds. A machine pours alloys into the molds. Once the material hardens, workers use rudimentary tools like tweezers to pry out the buttons. Each is then hand polished and smoothed before being plated in gold or silver.

"It is the same system, step by step for ready-to-wear and couture," said Mr. Lesage, who also supplies embroidery to ready-to-wear designers like Dolce & Gabbana, Celine and Balenciaga. "Couture requires more hours because there is always more embroidery done but for ready-to-wear, you have to be able to make 50 size 38's that are all exactly the same. The exactitude must be replicated by hand. The couture dress is unique and may never even be made to order. It's to attest to the quality of the house and to advertise for the brand. It is a dream of quality with no consideration of cost."

And what would happen to haute couture if the skills of all these specialists die out?

"There would be," Mr. Lagerfeld wrote in an e-mail message, "no haute couture any more."

nytimes.com published 19 January 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by dior_couture1245 (Post 3730519)

....So why is Couture questioned and not, say sculpture or painting or photography, which can also be very expensive, too?

Anther argument I was planning on making was that Couture keeps other art forms alive as well, and I don't mean the business of fashion as a whole, I was thinking more along the lines of, it keeps handicrafts from dying off. In a machine age world, it's a blessing really that there is couture, not only in the art of hand sewing, but the art of hand embroidery, millinery, shoe making, featherwork, fabric making, braid (...Signe Chanel, anyone?!). All these crafts would, I believe, if not for couture, cease to exist...they'd be taken over by machines. I mean, machines embroider ready to wear clothes, machines mass produce shoes, machines make fabric, so couture keeps these artists employed. So in a way, couture has a soul that ready to wear doesn't. Couture is MADE by PEOPLE...made perfectly, I might add, and RTW is made by a MACHINE. Any other ideas that come to mind with this topic?....

love this part of your response, dior couture ^_^ my ideas go along the same way

To add to my earlier post: I think that for many of the designers often regarded as the most talented, or most revolutionary, their vision for fashion starts as a "haute couture" vision. That is to say that a designers' initial idea is free from economic or practical restraints and the primary concern is to create from their feelings alone.

Yohji Yamamoto, Galliano (rtw), Theyskens, Ghesquiere, Kawakubu....you can see that their vision starts in much the same way that a couture collection comes about. Maybe that's couture's real role today. It allows designers to push themselves even outside of the hallowed arena of couture.

It all sounded much more eloquent in my head, but you kinda get the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilaughead (Post 3730786)

This is an interesting response - really good to have a conflicting opinion. what makes you say that you can't imagine Givenchy or Dior make a profit?