Designer & Fashion Insiders Behavior [Read post #1 before posting]

Discussion in 'Rumor has it...' started by tFS Thread Manager, Jun 22, 2018.

  1. Benn98

    Benn98 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    23,085
    Likes Received:
    4,765
    You always need to take it one notch up, don't you, Mulletproof? I mean I mentioned NI but you just had to add the Falklands to the mix. Lol.

    Maybe it is a conspiracy! Or maybe, in a shocking turn of events, these brands are deliberately doing this to get out of China's silk sheets?

    I agree with you and Salvatore, Lola. Brands are better off sticking to logo tees. Who cares for that country tshirts anyway!?! It's not even fashion. One thing to get your purse strings pulled over fur or human costs, another entirely when it's due to your own foolishness.
     
    modela, Lax89, Lola701 and 2 others like this.
  2. dior_couture1245

    dior_couture1245 Fat Karl

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2006
    Messages:
    7,809
    Likes Received:
    589
    To be honest....my take away from this “debacle” is this:

    Welcome to global fashion.

    In the desperate attempt to conquer new markets, these brands have now injected themselves into cultures they have no real understanding for. As such, the game is now “how do we grow a brand and create a product range that doesn’t offend the sensibilities of people living in 5 different continents.” GOOD LUCK.

    Furthermore, the more one has to take into consideration all the nuances of these completely different cultures and customs, the more innocuous and bland the design will become. When you rule out this culture’s offenses and the other one’s and the other one’s....you’re left with a pretty innocuous and soulless product designed to offend NO ONE ON THE PLANET.

    Oh well. There’s nothing I can do. All that’s left is to look for small, niche talent doing something with conviction and no interest in appealing to every human alive.

    Big brands committed suicide the day they sold their souls to the global market. There was a brief, bombastic and creative moment in the early 00’s (think Galliano x Dior, Marc x LV, Tom x Gucci, etc etc) when the huge influx in capital for these houses skyrocketed due to the opening to international markets, but once the initial novelty wore off and things got real....this kind of toe-stepping controversy is now what we’re up against. Indefinitely.
     
    Frida, Benn98 and Lola701 like this.
  3. Pricciao

    Pricciao Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2010
    Messages:
    4,248
    Likes Received:
    37
    Issues are "found" to motivate actions. You can't reason with political issues if the rules are ever changing.
    Still like I say, the fashion apology train happens now is only a distract. Don't get too bothered by it.
     
    Lola701 likes this.
  4. dsamg

    dsamg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2012
    Messages:
    5,530
    Likes Received:
    151
    Me too. After the UBS Chinese Pig scandal we had to have China sensitivity training at my investment bank 2 weeks ago and learn about every tiny thing we could say that would have far reaching consequences (e.g. talking about loving democracy etc). I was shocked to learn about all the subtle ways the government will hurt your country when someone does anything wrong at all. i.e. at the moment because Australia denied Huawei the chance to build our 5G network China are blocking the majority of iron ore shipments at the border. There is no other government in the world that is so petty when someone challenges them in any way, and the worst thing is that the government controls the media. Read a great article on this today I thought I would share:

    Source: TheAustralian.com.au
     
  5. Lax89

    Lax89 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,494
    Likes Received:
    85
    Very interesting article. Thank you, @dsamg !
     
    dsamg likes this.
  6. LostInNJ

    LostInNJ Rive Gauche. Rive Droite.

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,160
    Likes Received:
    26
    I think in the case of what Versace and Givenchy have done, it isn't isn't really poor design, rather a lack of/confusion regarding what a region is referred to as. They didn't put Chinese dragons on a dress and call it the 'Japan dress' The issue at hand, as evidenced by what is going on, isn't something that is immediately clear, but of course, to save face, they have issued apologies. Not much else to do, otherwise you do risk alienating a very lucrative group of people. Aside from this particular gaffe, I don't know another one either of these brands have committed in the region.

    I personally believe the issue here is more political than it is about proper design of a garment. If anything, social media (Instagram, Twitter, Weibo) is helping to propel these issues forward 100x bigger than they would have been 20 years ago. Everything is magnified, and yes, people are a lot more sensitive/have the reach and outlet to express any grievances they may have.

    For me, the issue isn't so black/white as to say these brands sold their souls by opening up to international markets. Would you prefer they don't cater to clients around the world? At the end of the day, these are businesses, out to make money, and in doing so, they must play by rules that they may not be accustomed to. It's a matter of operating accordingly and adapting to the tone of the region. It's no different than when a brand has to shoot a Middle East version of an image in order to advertise in the region.
     
    Benn98 likes this.
  7. Benn98

    Benn98 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    23,085
    Likes Received:
    4,765
    Excerpt from WWD:

    Brands Spark Chinese Ire Over Sovereignty
    ● Companies need to learn to be politically sensitive toward the world's biggest luxury market.
    • WWD Digital Daily
    • 13 Aug 2019
    • BY TIANWEI ZHANG

    .......This wave of incidents is different than the Dolce & Gabbana debacle last year, when its Shanghai show was abruptly canceled after insults about China were attributed to the Instagram account of designer Stefano Gabbana.

    The Chinese government did not escalate Dolce & Gabbana's fallout to a diplomatic level, as it did not touch the nation's political bottom line. "Instead of asking a Foreign Ministry spokesperson, you might as well ask any ordinary Chinese people and ask them what they think of it," the authority responded at the time. This incident has been different. People's Daily, the Communist Party of China's newspaper, on Monday published a harsh commentary, saying Versace and Coach “have made foolish mistakes, which not only ignited the Chinese people's righteous indignation, but also made their brands' prospects in the Chinese market bleak. Especially in the ‘sensitive period' when Hong Kong proindependence forces are creating chaos. This kind of mistake is even more serious.

    “To do business in China, you have to abide the Chinese laws," the paper added. "This is a matter of principle. To these unruly multinational corporations, in addition to condemning, we should also take some self-defense tools from the ‘toolbox.' All enterprises that damage China's sovereignty should be alerted."........

    WWD
     
  8. LostInNJ

    LostInNJ Rive Gauche. Rive Droite.

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,160
    Likes Received:
    26
    Thanks for posting that. Indeed, very different to what Dolce & Gabbana did last year. Although, how odd that three brands all made the same mistake. I suppose one could argue, that it wasn't so clear if they all did it.

    It's a very sensitive issue, but I wonder if this will really hurt the brands in the long term. Yes, the ambassadors have left the brands, but I wouldn't be surprised if in a few months time a statement is released saying that ambassador and the brand have made amends and the brand understands what was wrong and so on. I think everyone who severed ties did so, as to not feel the wrath of the Chinese people, for which they know they would feel the fallout from that much longer than just temporarily distancing themself from the brands.

    One thought that does come to mind, however, is what about the regions in question? I suppose it is less risky to disregard their thoughts/position on the matter in the interim than that of China. If the Hong Kong protesters have their way, and the "One Country, Two Systems" is abandoned and Hong Kong is recognized as its own state, will the brands then alienate those Chinese citizens that do not agree?
     
    #348 LostInNJ, Aug 13, 2019 at 9:29 AM
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019 at 9:35 AM
  9. DivineStyle

    DivineStyle New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2018
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    10
    This lmfao, like is this a thing now?

    But I find it kinda funny how some of if not all of you are in here waving your fists at cancel culture when it comes to other people's complex culture and ethnicity which has been around much longer than these lil overpriced fashion brands.

    Meanwhile, say one eensy weensy little thing about lgbtq and Jewish people... yeah I went there and you all know I'm right too.

    I've got an idea, how about these designers just make some beautiful/dope clothes and leave all of the hot take political bs to ummm idk politics and politicians? These brands are being brought to the flame cause they're making half assed social statements on situations that they ultimately don't know a damn thing about.

    And some of you have the nerve to be mad at that because you worship these brands of yesteryear, straight exposing yourselves. Nah, let's not properly respect people's hometown, country, culture and etc. No let's get mad at them and tell them to shut up cause they're interfering with brands that I love, meanwhile these lil random assistant designers that probably never even stepped foot outside of Paris or Italy can just keep making uninformed weak t-shirts.

    If these fashion houses won't practice self accountability then their consumers will for them, simple as that.
     
    Nomar, Lola701 and modela like this.
  10. dior_couture1245

    dior_couture1245 Fat Karl

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2006
    Messages:
    7,809
    Likes Received:
    589
    To your first statement, you proved my point. The globalization of fashion means now having to be sensitive to every culture’s complex and nuanced ideologies - geographically, politically, socially. I’m not advocating for insensitivity, but what I am saying is this: GOOD LUCK OFFENDING NO ONE EVER. That’s the game now.

    And as to your question - frankly, at this point, my answer is yes. A designer should not be “catering” to anyone. They should have creative conviction behind what they’re making...and if people like it, they’ll buy it. Prior to globalism....a big name brand could exist on a smaller scale and get away with things like fragrances and accessories providing more support for RTW. At this point, RTW has to perform like these other categories do....and that’s why fashion has looked so dismal for the last decade and half.

    But like I said...what can I do? The dead is done. There’s little - if anything - left in fashion today I have any taste for.
     
    MON, Lola701 and Benn98 like this.
  11. LostInNJ

    LostInNJ Rive Gauche. Rive Droite.

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,160
    Likes Received:
    26
    I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

    It's also great to live in the past, but ultimately, you must face reality. And the reality is, brands need money to survive and they must also compete with a fast changing marketplace. Perhaps saying that brands should be catering to clients around the world wasn't the right choice of words for you. What I mean is, I do not believe brands should only exist in one realm. Everyone should have access to fashion globally. Versace is still Versace and Givenchy is still Givenchy even with the removal of these particular items. The DNA of the brand hasn't had to shift in order to operate in these regions. The approach in which the brand represents itself has and must. Its ultimately a matter of respect.

    Again, I think the access people have to fashion and the outlets we have now to voice opinions have changed the landscape of the industry as a whole. Yes, we are in cancel/outrage culture, which I do not agree with. However, I do think it is good that in certain contexts/situations brands are being held responsible when they slip up. For me, I am in a grey area regarding the latest issues.
     
    DivineStyle likes this.
  12. FashionMuseDior

    FashionMuseDior Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2012
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    70
    Unless you want to chase after a niche or small market forever, how are you gonna grow internationally as a business if you don't try to appeal to the masses? fashion is ultimately a business and is money-driven and it always moves forward with the times we're living. If fast fashion is where is at then why big luxury fashion brands can't try to keep up with it?

    You wanna be a global brand and cater to these huge emerging markets then you make clothes that appeal to all of these markets, even if the creativity aspect of it suffers, I'm sorry but that's just how it is. If taking care of your customers and try to appeal to a whole new ones means you gotta be as inoffensive as possible then so be it, especially if you're a huge brand like that where you're in the radar constantly, this is not like 15 years ago where you could get away with so many things with minor repercussions.
     
    Lola701 likes this.
  13. dsamg

    dsamg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2012
    Messages:
    5,530
    Likes Received:
    151
    It is an extraordinarily different issue to cancel culture. LGTBQ people or Jewish people are allowed to have their own thoughts on the matter. In these situations the Chinese people do not have access to any outside media so they are only fed a narrative by their government. The government rallies against anyone who dares disagree with them by retaliating against other industries that have nothing to do with the matter: agricultural etc. The minute you start being accountable to China, you will never be able to stop because these aren't cultural considerations.

    Take the recent UBS Chinese Pig scandal for instance: an extremely good economist who only wrote that swine flu is bad for Chinese pigs. An innocent sentence that the Chinese government chose to portray an extremely different way to their people, say that Westerners think they are pigs and blow so far out of proportion. They unfairly lost a huge deal and the Chinese demanded he be fired (he is still on suspension as most of his colleagues have said they will also quit if people don't start standing up to the Chinese) and not hired by anyone else. Now, in the end, we all know he did nothing wrong and most people in the ry know this was a retaliation against foreign banks taking business from their local banks. But there are no complex cultural considerations with that government. Every situation is only reacted to based on what they are currently feeling about other situations related to the nationality of the company who made the mistake.
     
    TommysBaby, Benn98 and Lola701 like this.
  14. dior_couture1245

    dior_couture1245 Fat Karl

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2006
    Messages:
    7,809
    Likes Received:
    589
    Once again, this is my point.

    I’m saying that by globalizing, this is exactly the result. Creativity comes last.

    I’m not denying this fact - I’m simply arguing that the dearth of creativity in the industry - in particular at these legacy brands - is the net result of said globalization.

    These brands, up until the late 90’s and very early 00’s, operated on skeleton teams...it is quite wild, actually, to think some of these major brands of today maybe had 10? 15? 20? people working at HQ back in the day. But once the international demand poured in, expansion demanded huge, corporate teams. Creativity dies in those environments. Classic too-many-chefs scenarios abound, as well as a multitude of rubber stamped approvals from bureaucrats high and low, all acting on their most conservative impulses - knowing full well that any product that fails in the market that initially passed their desk, will be their responsibility when the dismal sales figures come in.

    I’ve certainly accepted that big brands - even mid-tier brands - all must follow this model now. I’m not looking to recreate the magic at, say, Dior. ‘Ain’t happening.

    All my point is - for those here on TFS who constantly notice the lows to which this industry has sunk to (creatively), I simply am offering a plausible explanation to this observation.
     
    tapenerd, Frida, Phuel and 5 others like this.
  15. MON

    MON Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,465
    Likes Received:
    1,117
    The crime committed by these brands is even daring to think that Location Shirts are a thing, and would even be a thing. Fashion that is not.
     
    Will Ross, Nomar, Lola701 and 5 others like this.
  16. Lax89

    Lax89 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,494
    Likes Received:
    85
  17. dodencebt

    dodencebt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2010
    Messages:
    4,340
    Likes Received:
    1,283
    It doesn't say much honestly, but here it is.

     
    russianelf and Lax89 like this.
  18. Lax89

    Lax89 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,494
    Likes Received:
    85
    Thank you so much :flower:
     
  19. Phuel

    Phuel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,746
    Likes Received:
    165
    Once-visionary and exclusive brands selling out to the lowest common denominators aside, LOL @the mainland Chinese being so sensitive about the Hong Kong and Taiwan situation… I’m glad the mainlanders are offended (if they really are offended or just a power play to have these brands kowtow to their every whim). Every Chinese that is not from the mainland does not support the Communist State and backs Hong Kong and Taiwan unconditionally.

    If only the likes of Versace and Coach were genuinely making a political statement in support of Hong Kong and Taiwan. But it’s just likely that their marketing teams are ignorant to the socio-political state of China and some department management signed off on those tees without knowing it was a faux-pas— and that they had absolutely no political statement to make in the first place. Stay dense, Donatella: Keep at safe, trendy PC-hollowness— but more importantly, profitable gimmicks like “no to real fur” and “diversity and inclusivity". Fashion people have never been the brightest, nor the most sincere bunch.
     
  20. fashionista-ta

    fashionista-ta Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2005
    Messages:
    16,514
    Likes Received:
    176
    Now that's a t-shirt. Yes, please!
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "058526dd2635cb6818386bfd373b82a4"