Jurgi Persoons

[cerfas]

"T99/142 Black coat with embellishments in chiffon, 1999-2000"
www.provant.be/momu

 

[Lena]

thanks for reviving this topic cerfas.. i'll never forget jurgi's "mirror" show,
i was there and i was in complete shock

 

[evexa]

You are hitting a nerve with me, I've been analyzing the subject for years. I think it's the following (and if I may sound anti-american, so be it - I know I definitely don't mean to

I think the problem in the US culture is the general lack of esthetics. It's not just abot not being able to see fashion as art, or the beauty of a piece of clothing. I think it's the inability to see beauty at all. Having gone through education in both Russia and here, and having been to Europe many times, I have a pretty strong basis for comparison. I think the basic education is at fault in the US (not to be confused with higher education, which is excellent). It's on a very low level compared with other developed countries. Kids here don't have the sense of beauty that is the undercurrent of all culture, not just fashion. Hence, you don't see that captivation with arts that you see in Europe. I mean, you have arts here, but most of it is commercial bullsh*t. It's done solely for the money. I think in order to create something of beauty, appreciation for esthetics is a prerequisite. The second factor is the over-commericalism and inability to make an independent buying decision by an average customer. The average US customer (who did not receive the prerequisite appreciation for esthetics) is conditioned by the media since early childhood not to make his own choice. He is bombardered by advertising (you MUST have this, you MUST have that). In such an environment, what can we have here? Just look at the major US designers, honestly, what have they done? Ralph Lauren, Donna Karan, Calvin Klein, John Varvatos, and yea Marc Jacobs (give me a break from his blandness, please) - are these the names you associate with innovation, creativity, beauty? Or are these safe, commercial, bleak masters of advertising? I think the latter. So, I beleive that the educaion that does not create esthetical values, coupled with consumerism is at fault here.

All this said, of course I understand that there are exceptions, but I am speaking about the general public. Just take a walk through the NYC's meatpacking district, and you'll see some gorgeous clothes by local NYC designers. But do they get world-wide recognition, even on Jurgi's level? Do you think if Raf Simons, with all his whims, started out in the US, he'd make it? I don't think so.

Pheew, ok, my outburst is over

You raise some good points, and for the most part I agree with you.
I did however discuss this with my husband (who happens to be purely USA educated but nonetheless very logical and intelligent). His point, which I agree with to a certain degree, is that aesthetics cannot be taught, that people are born either with a sharp eye for creativity/aesthetics or not and that that is the same in the US and in europe.
What he went on to propose is that the difference doesn't lie in education, but in the way aesthetics is valued in our respective societies, its importance and its relationship with fashion. Generally art and aesthetics are much more of an integral part of european societies, whereas here they are capitalist ventures. Thus in Europe fashion is closely tied with art, whereas here fashion, art and aesthetics are separate and partnered with money, media and social standing.


Another valid point to consider is that in places like the UK, and all over Europe in fact, there is a large group of people who are just as media-oriented as people in the US. There still exists a mass market in places like London, which makes it difficult to link lower level education to an appreciation for aesthetics.
Do you think we should also separate those countries from the arguement too?

 

[Scott]

I agree with some of that Eva...but regarding your last comment,one also has to stop and think,how much those societies there,have become so grotesquely Americanized these days. With the media,the celebrity and all our silly business franchises always filtering into those countries. It's no wonder people would fall havoc. That being said,I do think Europeans do have standards. They've always had a way,despite corporate America trying to claw it's way into their countries,of maintaining their senses of culture and keeping it on the fore. To me that says alot. It says they can be business minded nations yet what's more important is the integrity that's really carried them throughout for centuries.

Anyway,it's too bad though,this thread couldn't be revived with some good news

 

[PrinceOfCats]

His point, which I agree with to a certain degree, is that aesthetics cannot be taught, that people are born either with a sharp eye for creativity/aesthetics or not and that that is the same in the US and in europe

Without wanting to get into Poetics territory, aesthetic sense is something which is enourmously influenced by culture. If something is cultural then it can be learnt, generally speaking.

 

[evexa]

Without wanting to get into Poetics territory, aesthetic sense is something which is enourmously influenced by culture. If something is cultural then it can be learnt, generally speaking.

But then if a sense of style is 'taught', aren't those 'students' being brainwashed too? What makes one better than the other?
That is why I wanted to stay away from the idea that aesthetics is taught, I think europe has a culture that holds art and aesthetics in high regard as well as a liberal education...which is good

 

[softgrey]

thought someone might be interested in the history...
it;s like a recording artists 'discography'

Jurgi Persoons

Graduated in 1992 at the Royal Academy of Fine Arts in Antwerp.
Worked as an assistant for Walter Van Beirendonck on the W&LT Collection.

Winter 1996-1997
Re-interpretation of english classic man clothes by a lazy rich girl
(easiest and more commercial collection)

Summer 1997
Anorectic young girl alone in her grandmother's benidorm residence

Winter 1997-1998
Resurrection of eighties Ungaro tramps out of their graves
(Living Dead, Thriller, Michael Jackson)

Summer 1998
Working girl's nightmare part one

Winter 1998-1999
"Escada Trauma" the nightmare of every perfectionist working girl part two

Summer 1999
"I know what you'll wear next summer" - the movie, au Trianon Paris

Winter 1999-2000
Glass Cages Girls by the River - Quai de Seine

Summer 2000
Girls on Columns - Musee Art Moderne

Winter 2000-2001
Centre Pompidou - Coursive 6th Floor

Summer 2001
Girls in the Egg - Jardin des Tuileries

Winter 2001-2002
Centre Pompidou - Underground Parking

Summer 2002 - Masks collection shown in Show-Room

Winter 2002-2003
Class Photography Presentation - Palais Galliera


Jurgi Persoons
fall/winter2002/3

we all live in one world - sometimes in one classroom - and all the styles are different - what luck!

 

[softgrey]

cont'd...

 

[Scott]

And you know what's so ironic about that collection....to me,it was like a timeline filled with highlight's of all his collections past. All mixed into one harmonious,brilliant presentation. Perfectly themed.

 

[cerfas]

Softgrey-very useful info and pictures, thank you!
On culture:
Most cultural anthropologists (and they do know a thing or two about culture) refer to culture as brainwashing. Lots of them come up with nicer ways to say it, but essentially from a very young age you are being inculturated, taught how to behave and think and FEEL. School is the primary place where this is enforced. It's not really an evil or negative thing, but that is how culture works--it shapes us, in ways that we may be sure belong to us, it is still there. A good analogy for this is language. We probably all think we are free to express ourselves through language--and in a way, we really aren't. language by definition limits what we can communicate and the way in which we say it. Some cultures have words for a concept that other cultures cannot even conceive of, much less wrap their minds around. So we have a certain amount of choice within those limits, but the limits are there nonetheless, and in many ways have influence over the way our thoughts form.

 

[softgrey]

you are welcome cerfas...
don't you think the commentary on culture belongs in the culture and aesthetics thread?...is it a quote?...or is it your own comments...?

some very interesting points raised there...

 

[Lena]

cerfas, i so agree with your post on culture brainwashing

 

[cerfas]

Interesting, I didn't know there was a culture and aesthetics thread. I was mostly responding to Scott and Evexa's discussion above... And those are my own words, although I am deriving from ideas I've read in books. It's not a paraphrase I made from looking directly at a book and translating into my own words, it just came from my head, but were it in a formal paper I'd probably have to cite someone, tho I can't thinkof who at the moment. I will go check out that thread, and if you want to move my comment that would be fine :>

 

[softgrey]

i think you would like that thread cerfas...
that was a great post...maybe we should copy and paste it over there...you tell me after you look at that thread..you might just want to post something else...
up to you...

 

[softgrey]

for anyone who didn't get to see any of this stuff up close and in person...

this kind of haphazard...almost scar-like handstitching is a real signature for jurgi persoons....this type of hand work is obviously very labour intensive, taking hours to complete hundreds of stitches...thus driving the prices way way up...certainly this was a big issue...it was very difficult for him to keep his prices under control...and this was partially responsible for his low sales...but also responsible for the attention he received as a designer...

 

[softgrey]

that sweater is actually one of the simpler designs...
these pants show how he would take strips of torn fabric and handsew them onto a garment....creating a sort of distressed collage...

the clothes always had a 3 dimensional quality to me...because of the layering...

 

[Scott]

Deranged maze is how I think Valerie Steele described those trousers one time. Kind of an abstract maze.

 

[cerfas]

Thank you, softgrey. :>
I will have a look when I have a few moments to check it out (in the middle of finals right now...)
I love the photos of the sweaters--great to see a close up because I wouldn't have liked it as much without that. Beautiful.

 

[Scott]

That patchworking with the strips was also a real signature with him for a quite a while. One season,he made skirts and a couple blouson jackets(that I've seen) constructed entirely of heavy stripped fabrics.

But I must say,even in all his extradordinary handwork....compared to most that are doing stuff similarly such as Project Alabama....he was always far more reasonable. In other words,I'd rather pay $5-600(or more) for a beautifully tailored shirt with the handwork than I would for just a simple t'shirt for a $1000. I really don't see how people like Chanin and Subkoff can get away with doing such things. Especially since there's nothing underneath it all.

 

[brian]

oh god... i didn't even know we had a thread on jurgi... i absolutely love his work..... ... he's not in business anymore, is he?