The Effects of Plastic Surgery on Society

Discussion in 'Fashion... In Depth' started by softgrey, Apr 10, 2018.

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  1. softgrey

    softgrey flaunt the imperfection

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    What are we saying to our young people?
    Are we telling them that they are not good enough and that it is a good idea to carve themselves up in order to gain social acceptance?

    While there are also all kinds of messages out there that it’s ok to be yourself and all bodies are beautiful...

    Is this not completely conflicting messaging?

    Are we not causing all kinds of confusion in the still developing and fragile minds of our youth?

    What does it mean when monstrous distortions of reality are accepted as the norm and promoted by the media?
     
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  2. Benn98

    Benn98 Well-Known Member

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    Matter-of-fact Mepps strikes again......:lol:

    I do think you naturally make a valid case here. You only need to look at the success of Bella Hadid. I don't know what she looked like pre-surgery, whether it was extensive or not, but the way she's being rewarded does paint a problematic picture. What's more, she bagged a luxury beauty campaign. Are often shot in close-up elsewhere. The underlying message may not be that good. And especially, as you say, when it's probably the first campaign you'd see after Adwoa Aboah on a cover, au naturel with her freckled glory. The contradiction is laughable. I blame freedom of choice. Not that I'm saying anyone under the age of 21 should have no voice of their own, but if your teenage daughter demands a bum like Kim Kardashian's, what exactly would the right course of action be?

    I don't personally see much of an issue when a consenting adult choose to alter their looks. It's after all your choice, surely. It's when plastic surgery is used to boost one's self esteem? That's not a sustainable, a long term solution. And neither is it addressing the actual issue at hand.
     
  3. Armani

    Armani Moderator

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    Although I don't have a problem with those who choose to get plastic surgery to fix a major insecurity of theirs, what I do have a problem with are those who don't admit it, especially in the public eye. Plastic surgery, especially on sites like Instagram, has become a pathway for "insta-models" to gain a platform, a loyal audience who looks up to them. By not admitting that they've gotten work done, it's bringing the insecurities that they paid to have fixed onto their platform. It's disingenuous, and really hurts to see. So many (mostly young) people want a nose like Bella's, lips like Kylie Jenner (who admitted to her lips, but not until it became too obvious for her fans and the general public), or Nicola Peltz, or Sonia Ben Ammar, or Cindy Kimberly, or Belle Lucia, or Dove Cameron, or Lara Ghraoui, or Kendall Jenner (and the list goes on and on)... without knowing any of them got them done. That eventually leads to a never-ending cycle of insta-models using plastic surgery to project their insecurities onto others. Not to mention that plastic surgery is extremely prone to becoming botched as well... but we never hear about that on our Instagram feeds.
     
    #3 Armani, Apr 10, 2018
    Last edited by moderator Rampling: Apr 10, 2018
  4. mepps

    mepps Active Member

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    No one owes you or anyone else an explanation of what they do with their bodies. We all have insecurities, and humans have been altering their looks in various ways for thousands of years. This isn't new territory.
     
  5. SalomeGabrielle

    SalomeGabrielle New Member

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    People want a nose like Bella's because of internalized racist and eurocentric beauty standards. Bella undoubtedly had a nosejob because she thought her beautiful Arab nose was hideous.
    Who do you think she learned that from? I can't name more than five models who have a significant hump on their nose. Why is that?

    Growing up with an ethnic nose, I could just sense that my friends and relatives thought I was pretty, except for my nose, even if they've never explicitly mentioned it. I can't really blame them, society tells them from birth what is considered beautiful and what isn't.

    What would solve this issue is long-term representation, and not just token.
     
    #5 SalomeGabrielle, Apr 11, 2018
    Last edited by moderator cobramerc: Apr 11, 2018
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  6. tigerrouge

    tigerrouge don't look down

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    What is it saying to older people?

    That not only there is an ongoing stigma about ageing, but "you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't" resort to the interventions on offer.

    Ageing celebrities get scrutinised and castigated for any signs of surgery - but are generally dismissed from public view if they let their faces age naturally.
     
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  7. alterapars

    alterapars New Member

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    Thank you for bringing up this particular topic, softgrey. When I was younger, I knew everything was photoshopped to a certain extent and you could recognize it most of the time or you still had "real" pictures from the celebs or models to compare. But nowadays, plastic surgery is so common and perfect symmetry becomes the beauty standard. Personally, i think this is a very dangerous development because we are born asymmetric and with lovable flaws. Nowadays, you have the (cheap) possibility to change your body to apply to the standard, and almost everybody has access to it. 20 years ago, there were genetics and makeup, you could try your best and then learn to deal with it for your rest of our life. Now you can enhance yourself every couple months / years, there's no need to really accept yourself anymore (from my view the self-acceptance happens ins the late 20s, in average, the age, were most instagram-models are already full of fillers etc)

    I have no solution for this development but I hate the fashion industry embracing it. It also puts a high pressure on the models, speaking from experience here. I'm not against plastic surgery per se but I will continue to support body positivity activists. I think it will only get worse and in 20 years we'll speak about gene-enhancing. We must discuss the underlying problems and shift some values, probably, it's a deeply ethical discussion.
     
    #7 alterapars, Apr 11, 2018
    Last edited by moderator jays*kiss: Apr 11, 2018
  8. tigerrouge

    tigerrouge don't look down

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    On the other hand, where does any disapproval of plastic surgery leave trans people? Where do we draw the line about what's necessary and what's optional?
     
  9. alterapars

    alterapars New Member

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    The majority would probably agree that trans people or people who really suffer from their physical appearance who use plastic surgery are, at least in western societys, widely accepted for doing so. Plastic surgery won't go away and I wouldn't disapprove in general, it's a very personal and individual decision. The people in charge of establishing a certain aesthetic just need to be very careful and I'm glad this discussion is taking place here.
     
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  10. Les_Sucettes

    Les_Sucettes Well-Known Member

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    I do not think there is a line to be drawn because people within reason should be able to do what they want with their own bodies, but let's call a spade a spade, anyone that knows a bit about trans culture is perfectly aware that a lot of plastic surgery options put down under the umbrella of "dysphoria" are purely aesthetic decisions. The epidemic in the MTF trans community of Kardashian grotesque butts for example, is simply media inspired. The predominance of a certain stereotypical hyper feminine and masculine image adopted and achieved through extensive plastic surgery by certain trans people, is problematic even in their own community, and would give us a topic of discussion to last for days.
     
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  11. MulletProof

    MulletProof Well-Known Member

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    That would be 1998, the late 90s.. it's not very accurate. I was a preteen by that time and already so fed up with an entire childhood hearing adults chitchat about supermodels and cosmetic surgery (breasts implants, lip and butt injections, waist sculpting, facelifts..) and who got what done and whether it was for the best or she just made herself much worse. The 90s, now so romanticized and talked about like these women were "real bombshells", were in fact pretty reductive in terms of beauty standards and cosmetic procedures were common, especially breast implants and lip injections.. they were as grotesque as they're now (Pamela Anderson, Jocelyn Wildenstein). Even if we take cosmetic work out of the equation and focus on the "natural" ones, the man-eater Jessica Rabbit idea of femininity among successful models should tell us something about what was aspirational back then...

    Anyway, I don't worry too much, these things go up and down with generations, you have a generation obsessed with it... so obsessed the kids they raise end up abhorring anything that looks remotely unnatural and embrace what was perceived as flaws with open arms.. so open the kids they raise become cynical in return and make no fuss about cosmetic procedures.

    I lucked out being sandwiched in these two generations and loved the Belgian aesthetic and what these girls embodied.. I have 'updated' expectations but that's so engrained you always go back to that. It will happen the same, especially with the saturation of pictures and how repetitive they are, it's going to produce generations that identify and immediately reject and condemn anything resembling what we have now.. which is frankly, nothing we haven't seen before, anyone remember Esther Cañadas' reign and how she was EVERYWHERE? her face was hardly recognisable before surgery and no one really put into question her credentials as a model, she was as legit as you can be with all that entails (beauty ambassador). Bella Hadid, for what it's worth, looks pretty much the same as she did when she was about 12 riding horses, the awkward era that followed it with a tan, no eyebrows and bloated face that eeeeveryone seems to use as a parameter for what she should forever look like is just not accurate (thank god I'm not famous because I promise you my look at 12- puffy with blue eyeshadow+lip included- was NOT the me before and certainly not after! :lol:).

    Appearance, because it's so obvious, makes others naturally curious and if you notice a change, you feel compelled to study it and comment and it's all magnified in the public eye, especially if the transformation is surreal (e.g. Simi & Haze).. I don't find that too awful, humans can certainly do infinitely worse to each other. I just don't think anybody, no matter what their occupation or level of fame is, owes an explanation to others regarding their body choices, they're not responsible for how susceptible people are, no matter how young, towards media.. and it's a harsh world, you never know what these people felt like in order to make that decision... they certainly did not feel at the top of their game. I know that in my culture/environment/school nose was a big issue, I never really understood what was the "right" nose to have (maybe I do get the picture now :rolleye:), I just know that some girls would be called Pinocchio or parrot... I remember once asking a group of boys if they had seen one of my friends and one of them said something like "isn't that the one with the big thing up here?" (gesturing her nose).. everyone around him cracked up, literally in stitches and I felt really awful... I told an aunt that picked me up what these guys had said and she said :)ninja:) "well, she does have a little problem that hopefully her parents will fix when she's a bit older, she could be so pretty without that getting in the way", I asked her if she thought mine needed some work done, she said "let me look at that again.. nah, it's too small, it's hard to get small noses fixed" (whatever that meant..). My point is, sure, entertainment is awful, but the ordinary world can be pretty brutal before you even learn who Kim Kardashian is (and fyi, they're not really crazy famous in non English-speaking countries)... the smaller or more conservative the society is, the less tolerance for something that doesn't align.

    So no, I don't think the effects are that catastrophic and I don't think youth today is any more or less fragile than mine or previous ones or the ones that will follow it.. of course your teenage years make you vulnerable but also more critical and likely to question and eventually become against things you were visually or verbally told to accept no matter how completely contradictory it is (statement armpit hair but lip injections? ok! :lol:).. they will be fine.. and you know, hardly anybody that's benefitting from social media these days actually grew up with it, so it's all excess in every way and it's a challenge in terms of assimilation and it will continue to be until the generation that's about 10-13 right now grows up and teaches us how to have a fully normal and healthy understanding of it.
     
  12. rubydon

    rubydon Active Member

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    This is such a complicated issue.

    First of all, plastic surgery is nothing new. For example, many people think of Marilyn Monroe as the standard bearer of natural beauty, but she had work done on her chin and her nose:

    https://www.allure.com/story/marilyn-monroe-mystery-plastic-surgery-medical-records

    And Marilyn Monroe certainly wasn't the only star from her generation that got surgical enhancements. It was pretty common. The difference is that back then, no one talked about it. Today's society is much more transparent.

    So the fact of the matter is, today's kids aren't the only ones who grew up in a society influenced by plastic surgery. The key difference is that today's kids are aware of it, whereas previous generations of kids probably weren't aware of it at the time.

    It's interesting to me that Western society has normalized certain surgical procedures and stigmatized others. For example, braces are a rite of passage for many kids. Braces often involve major dental surgery. Teeth often have to be extracted so you can get that "perfect" smile. Yet most people don't think twice about getting braces, or having their kids get braces. I'm not saying that they should think twice about it; I'm just pointing out what I see as being an interesting contradiction.

    I completely respect a person's right to do whatever they want to do with their bodies. I've seen things that are not to my taste, but I realize that this is a personal preference. I'd never want to impose my personal preferences on someone else.

    Every society since the dawn of time has had its mainstream beauty standards, and they can sometimes cause harm. Women bleach and relax their hair, even those processes can damage the hair over the long term. And some women feel horribly insecure unless they're wearing a full face of makeup. And the end of the day, it's up to you to decide whether you choose to buy into certain mainstream standards.

    And the good news about the world we live in today is that there is no longer just one beauty standard. You can go online and find representations of many different kinds of beauty. For example, there are models on this site with gap teeth, and models whose nose and hair don't conform to certain norms.

    I don't think it's valuable to shame people for having gotten plastic surgery. I'm not saying anyone on this thread is doing that, but that shaming certainly happens out there in the world. It's a vicious cycle. People get plastic surgery because they feel as if they've been shamed for having a big nose or a weak chin or whatever. And then after the surgery, they're shamed for having gotten surgical enhancements. I think we can be kinder to each other.

    The good thing about today's society is that it's easier that ever to find little pockets of culture that reflect your beliefs and preferences. For example, I prefer a type of beauty that's more natural and perhaps a bit quirky. So I tend to seek out people, places and things that celebrate that kind of look.

    One of the most important things a person can learn is that people who disparage other people do so because of their own pain and insecurities. Once you've realized that, the opinions held by other people begin to lose their power.
     
    #12 rubydon, Apr 11, 2018
    Last edited by moderator : Apr 11, 2018
  13. LittleChoupette

    LittleChoupette New Member

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    Having seen trans circles, I'd have to strongly disagree, you don't just have access to all surgeries because you're trans, I don't see what epidemic of grotesque butts you're talking about at all. there is no plastic surgery under the umbrella of dysphoria that changes your butt. The main thing you could say is aesthetic is facial feminization but I don't see anything wrong with that, with the whole hatred trans people get in the first place


    If you want to change the hyper feminine and hyper masculine image adopted by MTF and FTM trans people, you have to fight the transphobia that fuels it. People get hated on for (what transphobes call) "looking like a man in a dress"
     
    #13 LittleChoupette, Apr 12, 2018
    Last edited by moderator madamerousseau: Apr 12, 2018
  14. Les_Sucettes

    Les_Sucettes Well-Known Member

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    Where did i said exactly you have access to all the surgeries because your trans? That’s ridiculous. Quite the contrary, it is problematic exactly for the reason it is extremely costly and those trans people that cannot afford it or even because they do not think it is appropriate to subject themselves to radical plastic surgery are not seen as not “trans enough”.

    The crux of the matter is that “dysmorphia” is being used to justify certain choices that are no different than those made by CIS people. Like i said before we do not need to draw the line anywhere, because people should do whatever they please, but pretend that trans people only use plastic surgery as a form of medical aid and are immune from fashionable media stereotypes of what an “ideal” body looks like, is disingenuous.
     
  15. ellastica

    ellastica Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps society's idealized version of oneself.
    I am going to speak from personal experience about my body issues, reconstructive surgery in a graphic way, so it that makes you uncomfortable, move on to the next section.


    As an adopted Korean American with cherubic unevenly pigmented cheeks, small button nose sans bridge, hooded monolids and a wide, round face sprinkled with many beauty marks I've never felt beautiful a day in my life. Cute sure even attractive in my own quirky way but never beautiful. On top of my 'weird' look, I've grappled with at times crippling body insecurities stemming from a disfiguring childhood physical trauma which left my left hip, thigh and butt scarred and lopsided. My legs are so short and muscular it's mission impossible finding pants which fit correctly and don't need to be altered. Yes I realize this maybe TMI and perhaps a Korean female thing but the lady junk always creates the look of camel toe in the vast majority of pant styles I've ever tried.

    So yeah painfully familiar with the concept of being "hard to fit." It's gotten to the point where I started to feel like a freak of nature because of my 24" inseam. I've tried on more unflattering cropped thriftstore granny pants over the years, than probably any girl on the planet.

    DEAR DENIM brands,

    Makes 24" inseam jeans for humans and not just cute novelty 'summery looks' cuz our legs remain that short year round.


    I still am overcome with anxiety at 33, even AFTER the painful reconstructive surgery I underwent in high school to make myself more symmetrical. The surgery created a slightly less wonky silhouette. My body insecurities still rage but slightly less debilitating.


    How often does society portray 'disfigured' (for lack of a better word), heroines, let alone acknowledge them as human beings on screen? In films, in plays, commercials, print publications, hell in pornos?

    I discovered the heady, transportive world of fashion magazines in the early 90s. Can you guess how many instances in which I saw another role model looking back at me with either monolids, short muscular legs or *gasp* physically disfigured in some way?

    I distinctly remember a singular, shockingly surreal, beautiful black and white photograph of blonde model with an amputated leg in mid 90s Harper's Bazaar. Thank you Liz Tilberis.

    Olivia Wilde, Rooney Mara, Katie Holmes, Amy Poehler, all have muscular stocky legs but rarely are they on full display in fashion magazines.

    I can on one hand rattle off the short list of Asian models and actresses with monolids on another hand.

    Sometimes when I wash my face, I rub my hands across my eye area, and my tiny eyelids become more pronounced and I think I look BETTER.

    I've entertained the idea of eyelid surgery but rather than getting the double lid, I'd want to simply lift the padded skin upwards which closes off my eyes and in doing so would reveal more of the whites of my eyes and highlight the lid I do already have. I simply look more awake, alert and less resting bitch face. If I had money to burn I'd DO IT.


    Why South Korea is the plastic surgery capital of the world
    Drake Baer | Sep. 22, 2015


    In Seoul, A Plastic Surgery Capital, Residents Frown On Ads For Cosmetic Procedure
    Elise Hu | February 5, 2018



    For all of the recent social media fueled barrage of diversity, minority, inclusion talk, still others are left out of the picture. Guess who ends up in the mainstream 'narrative"?


    Grace Mandeville
    [​IMG]
    gracemandeville/Instagram
     
  16. LittleChoupette

    LittleChoupette New Member

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    Apologies for misinterpreting what you said then, you’re not wrong
     
  17. softgrey

    softgrey flaunt the imperfection

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    excellent point and so very true!

    :flower:
     
  18. runner

    runner .

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    the beautiful to the eye of the masses typically at say some beauty contest could often be something like the pleasant, different from beauty to the eye of art or literature, philosophy, etc, or us in a moment of exceptional honesty or solitude where every body may look beautiful and someone like genet can say beauty has no other origin than the wound...
    but basically the former eye and the latter don't take place at the same time. it would be impossible to have one in the right and the other in the left. in this sense there is no one context that makes them conflict directly. we only slip into either venue. and there are many other venues as well. but we can never stay at one of them for ever (even if we try hard to pretend) as long as active intelligence is thriving. we are to go through inauguration and interruption.
     
  19. fashionista-ta

    fashionista-ta Well-Known Member

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    Plastic surgery has been fairly commonplace for longer than I've been alive, at least in some circles.

    What I find more disturbing is how commonplace injections have become. Frozen or partially frozen faces and distended lips ... you see them everywhere. Actresses that had virtually no lips in the 80s now miraculously do. (I remember what you looked like even though apparently you do not ...) I wish there could be a universal understanding that altering your lips to look like either the back or front end of a monkey is not a good thing. There's not much of a model for how to age gracefully, IMO.
     
  20. Phuel

    Phuel Well-Known Member

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    ^^^ Did we go to the same HS...????

    Growing up, it was common for girls in my high school(s) to openly talk about getting, or already had a nose job. They were a little more discreet and got it done in the summer; not quite as matter of fact about it like in Clueless

    Kids today have a different concept of what is considered “plastic surgery”: many consider injections/fillers as non-invasive “touch-ups” (especially those that worship the Kardashians/Jenners) thus not “plastic surgery”. However, when some are getting too much of these injections/fillers done, they look as messed up and ridiculous as those with extreme “surgery”. It’s all the same to me. I’d even say on record the horrendous makeup “contouring” trend that many girls (and some guys) seem to be addicted to, are as equally hideous as injections/fillers/plastic surgery. Any extremity in physical alterations, from excessive bodybuilding to overstuffed fillers, is destructive and ridiculous-looking.

    And yes, everyone’s free to do with their face/body as they please, and be proud of it, etc etc— just don’t be offended when I say that you look horrible when you flaunt such monstrous extremities.
     
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