'Luxe' Manufacturing and Production in China

[EdanChrysler]

Their record on human rights abuses (including systematic executions, use of torture, forced terminations), environmental pollution on a vast scale and animal welfare (beating dogs to death if the owner does not posess a license) - makes me not want to buy products made in China. Quality doesn't really come into it - I haven't noticed that the quality of their products is any worse than those produced for example in Eastern Europe. I was surprised to see that the new Biba line fronted now by Bella Freud is produced in China another reason not to admire this re-launch!

Ive just bought the Burberry runway umbrella (black with check inside lining) which is not that cheap (170 EUR).
And the nice surprise was, when I was at home, the little "made in china" tag
Which is sad

I assume there aren't any jobless people in England

It's a little tragic how misinformed and ultimately, assuming people can become especially when the topic revolves around the PRC. Unfortunately China's painful past has left a significant stigma when it comes to dealing with anything related to the country and the increase in the number of companies which choose to manufacture their goods in China is viewed unhappily by a large majority of people in the West (and, admittedly, the East, too).

First of all, again, as augustus has pointed out, it is unfair to devalue China's industry on sole account of its somewhat shady government because admittedly, no country can confidently declare every single component of its industry to be clean, pure and free from controversy.

Secondly I would like to point out that belletrist's comment is at best a little insensitive. It is difficult to make out what exactly you are attempting to imply about China's economy - that only jobless people will want to do manufacturing? That manufacturing is so lowly a job that only jobless people will be willing to do? Or that expensive goods like designer items e.g. Burberry umbrellas should not be made in a place that also manufactures cheap goods in bulk - i.e. China?

I might be a little too sensitive and jumping on every single problematic bit, but I think it's important to be wary of the implications of what you say. I might note that there ARE on this board either people who are Chinese, who live in China, or have visited China before. And assuredly, many of them can confirm that yes, China can and does indeed produce high-quality goods for export to other nations.

 

[jun3machina]

/\agreed, and china is a fashion capital as far as REAL designer goods go. they manufacture the fakes to appease the market for them in the US ( not saying that girls anywhere else in the world are free from fakes, but the market for them seems to be predominately US based), but from what i have heard, chinese women are keen for having the latest bag from whatever luxury line, and last seasons bags go to resale shops because they are "out". but carrying a fake is BAD BAD BAD!

 

[misssakura]

It is rather sad that the factories and hand finishing studios in the UK are going almost totally bust because everything is being shipped over to china...

 

[fourboltmain]

Globalization is a fact of life. Americans have been bickering about losing jobs overseas forever. It was once thought Japanese cars were inferior to American cars. Now Toyota trucks are more American than most Chevy's and of a higher quality. Just a sign of the times. I once worked in a shop where I machined racing crankshafts that said 'Made in America' and yet was cut from Chinese alloy stock. Makes you wonder...

 

[belletrist]

Secondly I would like to point out that belletrist's comment is at best a little insensitive. It is difficult to make out what exactly you are attempting to imply about China's economy - that only jobless people will want to do manufacturing? That manufacturing is so lowly a job that only jobless people will be willing to do? Or that expensive goods like designer items e.g. Burberry umbrellas should not be made in a place that also manufactures cheap goods in bulk - i.e. China?quote]

You misunderstood me.
First, there is nothing bad about manufacturing. Hermès or Chanel manufacturers are highly skilled, trained, and are well paid.
In a very near future, the high end maisons, such as Lesage, Lemarié, or even some jewellers or furriers will have economical problems. Because the people who work for them are apparently too much paid according to LVMH-PPR-Prada chairmen.
Second: If, considering what I've just said, people are willing, in England, to produce Burberry products, WHY do you make some products in China.
That's ridiculous, the minimum that a luxury brand must worry about is to produce good quality products, at least that was the case a fex decades ago, now people are only appealed by the brand.
You can't deny that something made by a skilled worker in Europe will be better in term of quality that something mass produced in overseas sweatshops can you?
And no, the same factory shouldn't produce 10$ umbrellas and 250 Burberry umbrellas. That's not my conception of "luxury". Think that even the hermès boxes and shopping bags are produced in France. And yes, Hermès is still a HUGE luxury empire.

 

[augustus]

belletrist There are actually several layers to your questions.

First, should the Chinese workers be blamed for their competitive wage, or should the blame lie on LVMH, PPR----publicly traded co-operations in FRANCE and EUROPE who believe they need to cut their cost for more profit? I think it is extremely unfair, and rather ethnocentric to blame the Chinese for the decisions of the "foreigners"

The second question is really the core: Are goods produced in workers China, Vietnam, India inferior to produced in UK, or anywhere of the World? Well, that's really up to one's own opinion. But if these luxury companies truly value quality control over profit, and if the Chinese workers are not on par with it, then they should, under the business ethnics, drop the umbrellas made by Chinese workers. Ultimately, these companies are the ones who send out orders to the local manufacturers---they are the decision makers.

I'd like to remind you that Umbrellas' invention(the ones we use now) are credited to the Chinese. I discourage Chinese to dwell in their past glory(its dangerous to do so), but it is just most unfair, imho, to put down the diligence of some of the Chinese people like this.

Lastly, I really wonder if the unemployed workers in Britain are truly willing to work on the incredibly low wages of those in China, Vietnam or Romania? If their skill is truly so superior, then I don't see why their own business leader shouldn't reward them by employments.

Sorry, can't articulate very well, worked 26 hours straight.

 

[brian]

i remember reading that prada was sourcing a factory in china.

 

[JamieCD]

Whats the point of discussing?
we should boycott that!!!
Please do that! chinese made should be sold for chinese!

 

[Caffeine]

Whats the point of discussing?
we should boycott that!!!
Please do that! chinese made should be sold for chinese!

Fine American cars can only be sold to American, Italian ready-to-wear can only be sold to Italian, Japanese electronics can be sold only to Japanese. Great, we're back to day one without trade and communication

oh, and Burberry umbrella. I don't have a problem with them producing umbrella in England. I don't buy a Burberry umbrella anyway. The problem is that they will probably end up charging you $500 for such an umbrella to be able to afford Kate Moss' ads. Are you going to be able to afford a $500 umbrella or willing to spend $500 for the check marks?

 

[Caffeine]

Secondly I would like to point out that belletrist's comment is at best a little insensitive. It is difficult to make out what exactly you are attempting to imply about China's economy - that only jobless people will want to do manufacturing? That manufacturing is so lowly a job that only jobless people will be willing to do? Or that expensive goods like designer items e.g. Burberry umbrellas should not be made in a place that also manufactures cheap goods in bulk - i.e. China?quote]

You misunderstood me.
First, there is nothing bad about manufacturing. Hermès or Chanel manufacturers are highly skilled, trained, and are well paid.
In a very near future, the high end maisons, such as Lesage, Lemarié, or even some jewellers or furriers will have economical problems. Because the people who work for them are apparently too much paid according to LVMH-PPR-Prada chairmen.
Second: If, considering what I've just said, people are willing, in England, to produce Burberry products, WHY do you make some products in China.
That's ridiculous, the minimum that a luxury brand must worry about is to produce good quality products, at least that was the case a fex decades ago, now people are only appealed by the brand.
You can't deny that something made by a skilled worker in Europe will be better in term of quality that something mass produced in overseas sweatshops can you?
And no, the same factory shouldn't produce 10$ umbrellas and 250 Burberry umbrellas. That's not my conception of "luxury". Think that even the hermès boxes and shopping bags are produced in France. And yes, Hermès is still a HUGE luxury empire.

There are two things that decide the quality of the products.

1. craftsmanship. it's up to the craftsmen. Look at how much western people are paying for Chinese fine art - paintings, jewelry, and antiques, you'll know if there are good craftsmen in China. And for the record, there are Chinese women working for Chanel Haute Couture in Paris.It's not like they forget how to work once they are located in China

2. quality control.it's up to your own western companies. If they don't do a good job monitoring the quality, hey, don't blame the Chinese.

There are MANY fine designers and craftsmen in China, and it's unfair of you to compare Hermes studio with the "sweatshops". Don't you know that there are many garments with rubbish quality made in France, England and Italy? Do your own research and think by using your own brain, doll.

 

[CocktailChic]

^ well said Caffeine

 

[belletrist]

"There are MANY fine designers and craftsmen in China, and it's unfair of you to compare Hermes studio with the "sweatshops". Don't you know that there are many garments with rubbish quality made in France, England and Italy? Do your own research and think by using your own brain, doll"

Won't notice how rude you are
However, please quote me blaming the chineses
I have never blamed anyone but the LVMH people
Of course chinese people can be as skilled as french ones (and of course some t-shirts made in italy are rubbish)
However 2, do you think that burberry made in china will be made in those factories? I don't believe so...
That's the same with italy. Italy has Bottega Veneta, Loro Piana, Berluti, etc. Why are Dior clothes poor in term of quality?
That's the same with Switzerland. Switzerland has Patek Philippe. Why Dior watches are so fragile?

You are overinterpretating my mind, and in the wrong way, but I really, really don't care, it's going to be pointless.

 

[Lena]

i remember reading that prada was sourcing a factory in china.

prada is manufacturing most of its production in china

*people, please remember to stay cool and polite even when you disagree with some ideas expressed here, it's more appropriate and will help this discussion develop in the correct direction, which is echanging ideas and information

 

[EdanChrysler]

You can't deny that something made by a skilled worker in Europe will be better in term of quality that something mass produced in overseas sweatshops can you?

...are you not claiming that products produced in China are of a lower quality than goods made in Europe?

For one thing, it is quite evident that you are assuming that Burberry (and possibly other made-in-China brands e.g. Prada) are going to use "sweatshops" to manufacture their products. For starters, that is a very rash conclusion and certainly doesn't do any merit to these established brands. Also you appear to equate "cheap labour" with "sweatshops" and "bad quality" and again, that is a very unfair conclusion simply because how much you pay the workers isn't necessarily tied to the quality of the products. Of course, you can't pay them cruelly meagre amounts, but in the case of luxury brands I do not believe the conglomerates in charge are actually daft enough to pay these people inhumane salaries. What "cheap labour" essentially refers to these days are the minimal salaries that workers can be satisfied with. The main reason why people are moving their factories to China is simply because Chinese employees are satisfied more easily with slightly lower salaries than those in more developed countries. I must remind everyone that China is, after all, still a developing nation when compared to more advanced countries such as the United States, England or France. The living standards in China aren't always as high as those in more developed countries (I can't say the same for major urban centres such as Shanghai or Hong Kong, however) and hence the people are more willing to work for lower salaries. As long as they can make a proper living out of their jobs, it doesn't matter if they're paid less than their Western counterparts.

oh, and Burberry umbrella. I don't have a problem with them producing umbrella in England. I don't buy a Burberry umbrella anyway. The problem is that they will probably end up charging you $500 for such an umbrella to be able to afford Kate Moss' ads. Are you going to be able to afford a $500 umbrella or willing to spend $500 for the check marks?

Excellent point, Caffeine.

 

[belletrist]

"Chinese employees are satisfied "

SATISFIED?
How can you say that chinese workers are "satisfied"
Have you ever been to China? Have you ever talked to chinese/other asians hard workers? You are talking about a country where human rights are actually hardly respected.
But yes, the ones who will work for Burberry will certainly earn a huge amount of money, buy a lot of Burberry products, go in holidays in europe, etc etc

+ and yes, i would buy a 500$ umbrella. I've already have actually, but it wasn't made in china - I wouldn't have paid this amount of money for a made in china one anyway, and yes, the quality of that Burberry umbrella is OBVIOUSLY not the same that my Hermès one.

 

[Caffeine]

For the record, I grew up in China and let me tell you that I can not tolerate words like this. (Lena, I understand the rules, so I am trying to be as appropriate as I can.)Do not interpret how we Chinese think about our own lives. Let me tell you something: without those factories that produce consumer products, countless people will be homeless and jobless and starve to death because China no longer needs all the agricultural workforce due to modernization. The world is blessed that people don't need to worry about Chinese peasants like they do about African peasants. You do not need to donate money to Chinese because we found a way to adapt to the modern industrial world.

My family's jewelry business hires many Chinese workers migrated from rural areas. They learned the skills, and then they worked hard. They are not underpaid by Chinese standard, and they managed to buy apartments in Beijing and move their families over to the city to have better lives. Their kids will go to school in Beijing and then get even better jobs. Our customers include first ladies Mrs. Carter and Mrs. Clinton. Everybody is happy with our products, and they can't be found anywhere else. We hired the best diamond craftsman from HongKong and customers show appreciation.

As far as I know, people are happy that they have opportunities to lead better lives. It's called global competition, and if the workers in Europe have to take the entire August off for vacation, then companies have to count on the hardworking Chinese to make production. If the small studios in France can't make a thousand pieces of garment for Prada, then they have to turn to the Chinese to complete the order. The reason is that the Chinese are smart, hardworking, and cheaper at this moment due to lower living cost and lack of better options.

If you are not happy with your umbrella, just return it. We work hard and we need respect.

"Chinese employees are satisfied "

SATISFIED?
How can you say that chinese workers are "satisfied"
Have you ever been to China? Have you ever talked to chinese/other asians hard workers? You are talking about a country where human rights are actually hardly respected.
But yes, the ones who will work for Burberry will certainly earn a huge amount of money, buy a lot of Burberry products, go in holidays in europe, etc etc

+ and yes, i would buy a 500$ umbrella. I've already have actually, but it wasn't made in china - I wouldn't have paid this amount of money for a made in china one anyway, and yes, the quality of that Burberry umbrella is OBVIOUSLY not the same that my Hermès one.

 

[belletrist]

It's funny how easily you say "we work hard"
Well haha so YOU work hard to make umbrellas/clothes in China?
What you say about globalization "people in europe go on vacation" shows that you hardly know something about sociology. You'd better read Pierre Bourdieu than telling me that YOU need respect, because I respect chinese people - who doesn't anyway? - , and have spent many monthes in Asia - and the conditions of life are not good, but you certainly know it better than me...
I don't blame China. I don't deny that China can produce good products. It would be stupid for a chinese luxury brad to produce outside china. But european/american brands shouldn't go there just to cut the cost. People are working hard, here, in France, too, even if we have wonderful things like free hospitals, vacations, 35 hours-a-week working time for most employee, etc etc. Being unemployed in Europe is not funny. And yes, people were working for Burberry. But then its perfectly ok "sorry, you cost us too much *but we gain billions every year *, we'd better go elsewhere"
If you don't see what's wrong, then there must be a problem...

 

[Caffeine]

I don't see it wrong. At the end of the day, it's how the economics works. At the end of the day, the entire society benefits from outsourcing because you guys, and whoever own LVMH stocks will benefit from the dividend, and the French government gains more tax from the profits. there is nothing you can do about it.The wheels are turning forward already.

And if people lose jobs in Europe, they have to adapt to the new era and find better ways to make money. They need to learn new skills, just as how the Chinese peasants learned how to sew clothes or cut stones. You have to move forward to develop, otherwise you'll lose the game.

 

[belletrist]

Hmmm I would prefer you to talk in term of humanity than in term of economy
First, I recognize that I don't have anything to tell about poverty because most of the people in my family never had to work. But I think I can imagine how hard it is to loose you job

Second. If Burberry/Prada want to open their owns factories in China, where workers are decently paid, then it's not that wrong (haven't say it was ok but...). The problem is that I think they will licensing their products, and absolutelky don't worry about how the people will manufacture their products. Which is bad

 

[Caffeine]

Trust me, the Chinese workers are better off with the manufacturing jobs. The French will eventually be better off, too. It's a win-win game.
Where and when did you go to China to cause such concern? Luckily you didn't go thirty years ago, because that was really bad. I personally experienced the difficulties back in the years, and yes due to hard work (as an architect and real estate professional though, but no difference from a worker sewing clothes or making umbrellas ), my family and I live well. Based on personal experience, there really isn't so called humanity issues. Making less than the French/American counterparts is better than starving to death, right?
You are lucky that you don't have to work. My cousins don't work either, but what I saw is that if you don't work, you tend to lose touch with the society. I'm glad and I think that I am lucky that I work.
don't worry about the quality issues. If the Prada products are poorly made, we'll stop buying, and then Prada will realize that they don't do a good enough job on quality control.

Hmmm I would prefer you to talk in term of humanity than in term of economy
First, I recognize that I don't have anything to tell about poverty because most of the people in my family never had to work. But I think I can imagine how hard it is to loose you job

Second. If Burberry/Prada want to open their owns factories in China, where workers are decently paid, then it's not that wrong (haven't say it was ok but...). The problem is that I think they will licensing their products, and absolutelky don't worry about how the people will manufacture their products. Which is bad