The Row S/S 2020 New York

[Lola701]

I said this mostly because COS, in it's own way, started to become the strongest competitor of Jil Sander in Germany - Well, besides maybe her own +J line, which begged the question if clothes made so well at such little price, would maybe make the purchase of something as austere and reduced in design feel less enticing - Perhaps that is why Raf Simons' tenure at Jil Sander felt so timely; by exaggerating the Sander minimalism into a more abstract, futuristic territory, he made the Jil Sander woman equally parts a sci-fi heroine and a connaisseur of the Japanese avant garde while still convincing everyone to believe that even his most couture-inspired collections were still somehow rooted in a Jil Sander vocabulary. He really offered a suggestion of where else Jil Sander could go, after Jil Sander.

Long story short, I can't help but think there is something missing here, something that takes the nostalgia of Calvin and Donna's heydays a bit further and decidedly out from the severity of an all-black/white/beige/blue collection.

AMEN to everything you said!

 

[Deleted member 7575]

I said this mostly because COS, in it's own way, started to become the strongest competitor of Jil Sander in Germany - Well, besides maybe her own +J line, which begged the question if clothes made so well at such little price, would maybe make the purchase of something as austere and reduced in design feel less enticing - Perhaps that is why Raf Simons' tenure at Jil Sander felt so timely; by exaggerating the Sander minimalism into a more abstract, futuristic territory, he made the Jil Sander woman equally parts a sci-fi heroine and a connaisseur of the Japanese avant garde while still convincing everyone to believe that even his most couture-inspired collections were still somehow rooted in a Jil Sander vocabulary. He really offered a suggestion of where else Jil Sander could go, after Jil Sander.

Long story short, I can't help but think there is something missing here, something that takes the nostalgia of Calvin and Donna's heydays a bit further and decidedly out from the severity of an all-black/white/beige/blue collection.

I said this mostly because COS, in it's own way, started to become the strongest competitor of Jil Sander in Germany - Well, besides maybe her own +J line, which begged the question if clothes made so well at such little price, would maybe make the purchase of something as austere and reduced in design feel less enticing - Perhaps that is why Raf Simons' tenure at Jil Sander felt so timely; by exaggerating the Sander minimalism into a more abstract, futuristic territory, he made the Jil Sander woman equally parts a sci-fi heroine and a connaisseur of the Japanese avant garde while still convincing everyone to believe that even his most couture-inspired collections were still somehow rooted in a Jil Sander vocabulary. He really offered a suggestion of where else Jil Sander could go, after Jil Sander.

Long story short, I can't help but think there is something missing here, something that takes the nostalgia of Calvin and Donna's heydays a bit further and decidedly out from the severity of an all-black/white/beige/blue collection.

There’s a luxury customer out there who just wants simple, perfectly made clothes and they don’t really care what happens on the runway. You mention COS but this is a woman who hasn’t even heard of COS. Hermès, Loro Piana, Akris, Eskandar—that’s her world. It’s not about fashion.

 

[tricotineacetat]

There’s a luxury customer out there who just wants simple, perfectly made clothes and they don’t really care what happens on the runway. You mention COS but this is a woman who hasn’t even heard of COS. Hermès, Loro Piana, Akris, Eskandar—that’s her world. It’s not about fashion.

I can only mention what I saw when Jil Sander's Uniqlo line was released every time I went for the launch in Paris during fashion week - All these women in their double-face cashmere and their mainline Jil Sander suits showed up to buy it in masses. I am not exaggerating, those kind of women today, they are more open to the idea of complementing their designer wardrobes with essentials from mass market retailers like Uniqlo, COS, Arket etc. than 20 years ago when there weren't any of these options out there.

 

[SophiaVB]

I bought a coat from the +J line and it has incredible fit, fabric etc. Largely indistinguishable from my other Jil Sander pieces - and now worth a lot resale!

 

[perfect blue]

I bought a coat from the +J line and it has incredible fit, fabric etc. Largely indistinguishable from my other Jil Sander pieces - and now worth a lot resale!

I have a blue mens parka from +J and get compliments on it often even though I’ve beaten it up from wearing so much.

 

[Lola701]

There’s a luxury customer out there who just wants simple, perfectly made clothes and they don’t really care what happens on the runway. You mention COS but this is a woman who hasn’t even heard of COS. Hermès, Loro Piana, Akris, Eskandar—that’s her world. It’s not about fashion.

Yes but the woman who buys Hermès RTW, Akris, Ralph Lauren mainline, who loves Delvaux or Moynat goes for simplicity and not necessarly minimalism as it is presented now.
Those brands are more about a lifestyle than an aesthetic. Because those women are real luxury customers because they like what they wear to look and feel luxurious.
Usually, they goes for heritage brands because you can go there with closed eyes, those brands solves problems.

The row is too much in between both world to totally speak to those women. The row is really for a fashion customer who wants the Hermès type of feel, with a Jil Sander sensibility without maybe the « dusty » aspect of some of the heritage brands. The Row’s distribution is very edgy.

For me, The Row’s fashion doesn’t live up to their ambition...
Let’s be honest, even luxury customers consume luxury the same way people consume high street. Every year, at the Hermès sales in Paris, you have very chic ladies being over-excited over the idea of buying a cashmere sweater!

 

[Deleted member 7575]

Yes but the woman who buys Hermès RTW, Akris, Ralph Lauren mainline, who loves Delvaux or Moynat goes for simplicity and not necessarly minimalism as it is presented now.
Those brands are more about a lifestyle than an aesthetic. Because those women are real luxury customers because they like what they wear to look and feel luxurious.
Usually, they goes for heritage brands because you can go there with closed eyes, those brands solves problems.

The row is too much in between both world to totally speak to those women. The row is really for a fashion customer who wants the Hermès type of feel, with a Jil Sander sensibility without maybe the « dusty » aspect of some of the heritage brands.

That’s your opinion but their sales people I’ve spoken with at Bergdorf say otherwise. Have you really looked at what they actually sell?

 

[Lola701]

That’s your opinion but their sales people I’ve spoken with at Bergdorf say otherwise. Have you really looked at what they actually sell?

I’m talking more on a global market but ultimately, their biggest market is the US so they can sit next to those brands and let the product speaks for itself.

In Europe, it’s seen as more edgy.
That’s maybe why I don’t appreciate it fully...It’s a very American product in my taste.

But i’ve been told that their clientele is very young compared to the heritage brands we mentioned. Like the women buying Hermès RTW or Akris are not at all clients of The Row RTW but their accessories, through the exclusivity has quite a broad success.

 

[Deleted member 7575]

I’m talking more on a global market but ultimately, their biggest market is the US so they can sit next to those brands and let the product speaks for itself.

In Europe, it’s seen as more edgy.
That’s maybe why I don’t appreciate it fully...It’s a very American product in my taste.

But i’ve been told that their clientele is very young compared to the heritage brands we mentioned. Like the women buying Hermès RTW or Akris are not at all clients of The Row RTW but their accessories, through the exclusivity has quite a broad success.

The Row is as American as it gets which is partly why I love it.

 

[tricotineacetat]

In the longer run, I don't think there will be a large market share for a plain, flat-front wool trouser or white poplin shirt to cost the lofty amounts that The Row is asking for as there will be more and more mid-market companies with better infrastructure to make such garments with better quality AND equally good fabrics - I am not exaggerating at that because when I look at the fabrics The Row uses for their commercial/pre collection range, I can tell it's mostly Italian mills that Theory or Hugo Boss would also source from.

I believe this is a shift in the market already foreseen since about the time when Jil Sander left her company the first time around, as the customer base for very classic, minimalist fashion (most of which were men and women around her own age), were decreasing in number from the early 2000s onwards. In Jil Sander's case, they tried unsuccessfully to renew the brand aesthetic for a new generation of customers by hiring Milan Vukmirovic (does anybody remember the catastrophic reviews?) but really only under Raf Simons did the company find a solution how to further tell the story of Jil Sander to a new audience (note that even her own collections during her brief return were all but going back to the where it started, in favor of a far more abstracted, 'fashion' direction).

 

[Deleted member 7575]

In the longer run, I don't think there will be a large market share for a plain, flat-front wool trouser or white poplin shirt to cost the lofty amounts that The Row is asking for as there will be more and more mid-market companies with better infrastructure to make such garments with better quality AND equally good fabrics - I am not exaggerating at that because when I look at the fabrics The Row uses for their commercial/pre collection range, I can tell it's mostly Italian mills that Theory or Hugo Boss would also source from.

I believe this is a shift in the market already foreseen since about the time when Jil Sander left her company the first time around, as the customer base for very classic, minimalist fashion (most of which were men and women around her own age), were decreasing in number from the early 2000s onwards. In Jil Sander's case, they tried unsuccessfully to renew the brand aesthetic for a new generation of customers by hiring Milan Vukmirovic (does anybody remember the catastrophic reviews?) but really only under Raf Simons did the company find a solution how to further tell the story of Jil Sander to a new audience (note that even her own collections during her brief return were all but going back to the where it started, in favor of a far more abstracted, 'fashion' direction).

That's all an interesting Theory. *cue drum and snare* and Theory would be delighted by the idea, but the notion that they could afford the same qualities as The Row would be news to them.

Again, it's sort of like saying "In the future, I don't think Loro Piana will have a market for expensive cashmere sweaters because there are cheaper options in the market." Oh but they can and in fact their business is BOOMING. If anything, after this ridiculous streetwear arc, I think we're going to see a new appreciation for classic, timeless, uber luxurious and well made clothes. That's just my own theory, though we're already seeing that current at Celine.

But, I won't disagree, and neither will The Washington Post's Robin Givhan in her review of the show, that the prices of the clothes---regardless of whether they are plain or not---just seem a little ridiculous. But they're selling very, very well. The basic are the core of their business. They have been for awhile.

You talk about Raf furthering the Jil Sander story but did you ever think The Row has an appealing one of their own? Even if it's for a listener you don't understand or a tale you don't particularly want to hear?

 

[SophiaVB]

The Row customer is *luxury* because they are interested in buying into narrative. Its pricing, lack of discounts, presentation, logo, etc reflects that. Their target demo is not going to be interested in Theory (regardless of whether they poached its former designer) because Theory is mass.

 

[tricotineacetat]

That's all an interesting Theory. *cue drum and snare* and Theory would be delighted by the idea, but the notion that they could afford the same qualities as The Row would be news to them.

Again, it's sort of like saying "In the future, I don't think Loro Piana will have a market for expensive cashmere sweaters because there are cheaper options in the market." Oh but they can and in fact their business is BOOMING. If anything, after this ridiculous streetwear arc, I think we're going to see a new appreciation for classic, timeless, uber luxurious and well made clothes. That's just my own theory, though we're already seeing that current at Celine.

But, I won't disagree, and neither will The Washington Post's Robin Givhan in her review of the show, that the prices of the clothes---regardless of whether they are plain or not---just seem a little ridiculous. But they're selling very, very well. The basic are the core of their business. They have been for awhile.

You talk about Raf furthering the Jil Sander story but did you ever think The Row has an appealing one of their own? Even if it's for a listener you don't understand or a tale you don't particularly want to hear?

I am not saying that garments designed with a purist design language won't have a place in the future, what I am trying to emphasize on is that we cannot ignore that
on the upmost level of luxury, it's important to tell a story, and imbue this design with a trademark of your own. This particular collection from The Row is a bit low on anything evocative which is a difference to their previous collections. It's as you said, as if they just put the commercial part of their collection on the runway and didn't go further with more elaborate models and fabric groups that you would expect to find in a collection presented in a show format - Let's not forget this is supposed to represent the 30% of merchandise ordered that comes at a late part of the season, where most buyers really only cherry-pick 'strong' pieces, as they would most likely have only bought the more classical pieces during Pre-season.

 

[tricotineacetat]

Again, it's sort of like saying "In the future, I don't think Loro Piana will have a market for expensive cashmere sweaters because there are cheaper options in the market." Oh but they can and in fact their business is BOOMING. If anything, after this ridiculous streetwear arc, I think we're going to see a new appreciation for classic, timeless, uber luxurious and well made clothes. That's just my own theory, though we're already seeing that current at Celine.

Fair enough, but I believe what we perceive as 'classic' is also changing, along with the customer themselves. The original customers that Jil Sander spoke to, the women that bought the double face cashmere, the suits and the shirts in her heydays of the 90ies are now likely in their late 50ies to 70ies. While she will still buy clothes, she will probably buy a bit less and more casual than during the time she needed pantsuits and tailoring. The people that are now in their 40ies and early 50ies grew up with Helmut Lang, Raf Simons and Hedi Slimane as their opinion leaders. They are accustomed to a much more modernized idea of classic - This is probably why companies like Ermenegildo Zegna or Brioni chose to hire creative directors with whom they hoped to reinvent their classic product for a new generation of customers.

 

[Deleted member 7575]

Fair enough, but I believe what we perceive as 'classic' is also changing, along with the customer themselves. The original customers that Jil Sander spoke to, the women that bought the double face cashmere, the suits and the shirts in her heydays of the 90ies are now likely in their late 50ies to 70ies. While she will still buy clothes, she will probably buy a bit less and more casual than during the time she needed pantsuits and tailoring. The people that are now in their 40ies and early 50ies grew up with Helmut Lang, Raf Simons and Hedi Slimane as their opinion leaders. They are accustomed to a much more modernized idea of classic - This is probably why companies like Ermenegildo Zegna or Brioni chose to hire creative directors with whom they hoped to reinvent their classic product for a new generation of customers.

Most rich people don't actually care about fashion. Luxury, yes, fashion not so much. There's a whole slew of wealthy customers who don't even know who Helmut or Raf Simons are and they don't care. Yes, their husbands are buying Zegna and Brioni, and yes those studios need to refresh their product here and there, as ALL businesses must, but mind you Pilati didn't really the effect Zegna the way they wanted him to and they ended going back to a more conservative, straightforward designer (Satori). Some people have a lot of money and they don't want to look a certain way or say a certain thing with they way they dress. They just want to get dressed with the nicest clothes possible. Fashion doesn't always fulfill that desire. I think The Row is picking up where Zoran and Shamask left off more so than Jil Sander (and I do think there is a fashion oriented customer who would love to shop the current Jil Sander incarnation as well as The Row provided they could afford it).

If you ever come to NYC, go to The Row's floor at Bergdorf and look around. You'll see exactly what I mean.