Fashion Conspiracy Theories

[KoV]

Is it more Yves himself or Pierre, though 🤔🍿💀

I can only imagine what skeletons lurked in Pierre’s closet.

Birds of a feather

 

[blueorchid]

Oh that’s true, I was just imagining shut in Yves who wrote Tim Ford mean letters!

 

[lookatme]

I have been suspicious for a while now that Parson’s somehow orchestrated behind the scenes, maybe in cahoots with Vogue/Anna, Proenza Schouler’s graduate collection being bought entirely by Bergdorf’s.

I have no evidence of this, but my theory is this: all of Parson’s big name “alumni” are actually all drop outs - Marc Jacobs, Donna Karan, Tom Ford (graduated with architecture degree, not fashion). The school needed a success story and the Proenza boys were their ideal candidate.

Shortly after, Parson’s lands the Project Runway gig and the rest is history.

Just a thought.

 

[LadyJunon]

I have been suspicious for a while now that Parson’s somehow orchestrated behind the scenes, maybe in cahoots with Vogue/Anna, Proenza Schouler’s graduate collection being bought entirely by Bergdorf’s.

I have no evidence of this, but my theory is this: all of Parson’s big name “alumni” are actually all drop outs - Marc Jacobs, Donna Karan, Tom Ford (graduated with architecture degree, not fashion). The school needed a success story and the Proenza boys were their ideal candidate.

Shortly after, Parson’s lands the Project Runway gig and the rest is history.

Just a thought.

Funny enough, they haven't really given us another direct success story since:
• Jason Wu got his cache through designing dolls
• Prabal Gurung studied in India
• Peter Do went to FIT
• the Eckhaus Latta duo went to Rhodes School of Design
• Philip Lim and Joseph Altuzarra learnt through internships
• Telfar Clemens, Brandon Maxwell, Shayne Olivier and the Rodarte sisters are all self taught

London fashion is more centered around Central Saint Martins, which has blessed (or cursed) us with Kiko Standinov, Matty Bovan, Dilara Findikoglu, Richard Quinn, Nensi Dojaka, Harris Reed and Aaron Esh in the space of one decade.

Parisian schools also have their own indie scene (Victor Weinsanto, Ludovic de Saint-Sernin, Alice Vaillant, Louis Gabriel Nouchi and Charles de Vilmorin) they're somewhat overshadowed by the designers who studied in Belgium (Glenn Martens, Marine Serre, Rushmey Botter, Meryll Rogge). It doesn't help that, Jacquemus, France's biggest indie designer is mostly self-taught.

 

[Lola701]

Oh that’s true, I was just imagining shut in Yves who wrote Tim Ford mean letters!

It was definitely Pierre who wrote those letters. Yves could barely function by the time he retired but also Pierre was known for writing his speeches and all.
The war between Tom and Yves was really a war between Bergé and Tom/Dom.

But I think the conspiracy about Yves was always about his supposed sexscapades in Morocco involving drugs and younger Moroccan men. The drug use is documented and confirmed but the involvement of Moroccan men has always been a legend.

Funny enough, they haven't really given us another direct success story since:
• Jason Wu got his cache through designing dolls
• Prabal Gurung studied in India
• Peter Do went to FIT
• the Eckhaus Latta duo went to Rhodes School of Design
• Philip Lim and Joseph Altuzarra learnt through internships
• Telfar Clemens, Brandon Maxwell, Shayne Olivier and the Rodarte sisters are all self taught

London fashion is more centered around Central Saint Martins, which has blessed (or cursed) us with Kiko Standinov, Matty Bovan, Dilara Findikoglu, Richard Quinn, Nensi Dojaka, Harris Reed and Aaron Esh in the space of one decade.

Parisian schools also have their own indie scene (Victor Weinsanto, Ludovic de Saint-Sernin, Alice Vaillant, Louis Gabriel Nouchi and Charles de Vilmorin) they're somewhat overshadowed by the designers who studied in Belgium (Glenn Martens, Marine Serre, Rushmey Botter, Meryll Rogge). It doesn't help that, Jacquemus, France's biggest indie designer is mostly self-taught.

The system around Parisian school is also very different because of the weight of the Haute Couture heritage. There’s an emphasis on technicality but also, the majority of students are trained or conditioned to be part of a Couture or HF house whereas in NYC or London, they are trained first to be self sufficient. And I must say that CSM kinda let them in a bubble sometimes disconnected to the reality of the industry.

As far as French schools, Studio Bercot and Ecole Duperre (a public school). Alexandre Mattiussi, Guillaume Henry or even Julien Dossena (before going to La Cambre), all came from Duperre. From Berçot, you have people like Isabel Marant, Vanessa Seward or even Nadege from Hermes. Or if we want people from the newer generation you have the Coperni boys from comes from Mod’Art International…
But going independent is a very different feat in France.

Jacquemus went to Esmod first. That allowed him to create small connections in the industry and find jobs to support him when he launched his brand.

 

[yslforever]

It was definitely Pierre who wrote those letters. Yves could barely function by the time he retired but also Pierre was known for writing his speeches and all.
The war between Tom and Yves was really a war between Bergé and Tom/Dom.

But I think the conspiracy about Yves was always about his supposed sexscapades in Morocco involving drugs and younger Moroccan men. The drug use is documented and confirmed but the involvement of Moroccan men has always been a legend.

The system around Parisian school is also very different because of the weight of the Haute Couture heritage. There’s an emphasis on technicality but also, the majority of students are trained or conditioned to be part of a Couture or HF house whereas in NYC or London, they are trained first to be self sufficient. And I must say that CSM kinda let them in a bubble sometimes disconnected to the reality of the industry.

As far as French schools, Studio Bercot and Ecole Duperre (a public school). Alexandre Mattiussi, Guillaume Henry or even Julien Dossena (before going to La Cambre), all came from Duperre. From Berçot, you have people like Isabel Marant, Vanessa Seward or even Nadege from Hermes. Or if we want people from the newer generation you have the Coperni boys from comes from Mod’Art International…
But going independent is a very different feat in France.

Jacquemus went to Esmod first. That allowed him to create small connections in the industry and find jobs to support him when he launched his brand.

Legend because Yves was very much into the leather scene in Paris (with Jacques de Bascher as his daredevil accomplice), and the men he met in Morocco were of the hairy Tom of Finland kind, VERY muscular or hairy, not the youngish twinkish ones... You can just look at his p*rn*gr*ph*c drawings, he loved to draw his lovers...

 

[KoV]

Legend because Yves was very much into the leather scene in Paris (with Jacques de Bascher as his daredevil accomplice), and the men he met in Morocco were of the hairy Tom of Finland kind, VERY muscular or hairy, not the youngish twinkish ones... You can just look at his p*rn*gr*ph*c drawings, he loved to draw his lovers...

I don't think it's quite so simple. I've no idea if he was involved in anything with children or not (though one of his former lovers has stated he was) but YSL having a thing for big, hairy, muscular dudes isn't absolution, it doesn't disprove anything. In the same way "she's not my type" isn't a valid defense in a sexual assault case. YSL was with Jacques de Bascher when Jacques was quite young (21? 22?) and hardly a hairy muscle god at the time, I think considered more of a dandy. Yves was 15 years older than Jacques. There's nothing scandalous about that, but I'm using it to illustrate the point that he had some range to his taste. In addition to that, half of the "sins" of these people are just facilitating, encouraging, or covering up for others. I think people take guilt by association much too far these days (the obsession over whose phone numbers were in Epstein's possession is crazy to me.... I'd hate to be liable for the behavior of everyone who's got me saved as a contact in their phone....) but in some cases, it's worth a deeper dive. If you've got years-long friendships and even serve as something of a patron for someone who openly publishes books and essays detailing their r*pe of boys as young as 8 years old, you are either the blindest of the blind OR at best you're enabling a monster.

 

[blueorchid]

I'll have to find the direct quote later, but I remembered a totally random Yves related conspiracy theory (unrelated to his sex life). In one of the more recent Karl Lagerfeld biographies (I forget which one), the author found the woman who won the suits category in the Woolmark competition alongside them in 1954. Anyway, this woman, relegated to being a footnote in history, said she thought Yves cheated... because he had a previous connection to Vogue Paris at the time (Michel de Brunhoff, the editor).

 

[Phuel]

I have been suspicious for a while now that Parson’s somehow orchestrated behind the scenes, maybe in cahoots with Vogue/Anna, Proenza Schouler’s graduate collection being bought entirely by Bergdorf’s.

I have no evidence of this, but my theory is this: all of Parson’s big name “alumni” are actually all drop outs - Marc Jacobs, Donna Karan, Tom Ford (graduated with architecture degree, not fashion). The school needed a success story and the Proenza boys were their ideal candidate.

Shortly after, Parson’s lands the Project Runway gig and the rest is history.

Just a thought.

There’s no doubt that Anna and her ilks were puppeteering certain individuals’ destiny in the industry. Many customers will simply gravitate towards male designers (heterosexual or homo), simply because they’re handsome and charismatic, with a carefully curated lifestyle in their public persona: It’s always been very political in that sense. And that duo fit the bill at the time. People here dismiss them on a whim for stealing from Phoebe and that’s undeniable of course; but at the same time, looking at the separates away from the try-hard styling and presentations, they offer solidly designed and constructed pieces that are worthy investments beyond the gimmicky factors that plague so many coveted brands— Phoebe’s included. Consuelo’s Marni hugely, blatantly ripped off Miuccia’s, and sometimes, improved on it; but no one makes a stink about it. And somehow the Proenza duo ripping off Phoebe is somehow fashion blasphemous LMFAO …As if her Celine wasn't blatantly ripping off-- I mean, "inspired” by Helmut...

It was definitely Pierre who wrote those letters. Yves could barely function by the time he retired but also Pierre was known for writing his speeches and all.
The war between Tom and Yves was really a war between Bergé and Tom/Dom.

Was it just that Tom was American that Pierre had such an open disdain for him…??? Because frankly, Tom’s YSL was superior in design and branding than anything that Yves himself had been churning out since the 1980s and its overly-licenced garbage in all the midrange department store’s discount aisles. People will always look at a designer’s trajectory through rose-tainted Coke-bottle thick glasses when the designer has passed away, but Yves’ time as a innovative brand was long long long gone by the mid-1980s.

 

[yslforever]

There’s no doubt that Anna and her ilks were puppeteering certain individuals’ destiny in the industry. Many customers will simply gravitate towards male designers (heterosexual or homo), simply because they’re handsome and charismatic, with a carefully curated lifestyle in their public persona: It’s always been very political in that sense. And that duo fit the bill at the time. People here dismiss them on a whim for stealing from Phoebe and that’s undeniable of course; but at the same time, looking at the separates away from the try-hard styling and presentations, they offer solidly designed and constructed pieces that are worthy investments beyond the gimmicky factors that plague so many coveted brands— Phoebe’s included. Consuelo’s Marni hugely, blatantly ripped off Miuccia’s, and sometimes, improved on it; but no one makes a stink about it. And somehow the Proenza duo ripping off Phoebe is somehow fashion blasphemous LMFAO …As if her Celine wasn't blatantly ripping off-- I mean, "inspired” by Helmut...



Was it just that Tom was American that Pierre had such an open disdain for him…??? Because frankly, Tom’s YSL was superior in design and branding than anything that Yves himself had been churning out since the 1980s and its overly-licenced garbage in all the midrange department store’s discount aisles. People will always look at a designer’s trajectory through rose-tainted Coke-bottle thick glasses when the designer has passed away, but Yves’ time as a innovative brand was long long long gone by the mid-1980s.

Just a reminder that YSL was on the path of relevance again thanks to Hedi Slimane and Alber Elbaz, two Yves's protégés, but Tom's arrogance deprieved YSL of two of the greatest and most influential talents of their generations...
That's plenty of legitimate reasons for Pierre and Yves to both hate Tom Ford. I think plenty of people on this forum would be rightly pissed

 

[Lola701]

I'll have to find the direct quote later, but I remembered a totally random Yves related conspiracy theory (unrelated to his sex life). In one of the more recent Karl Lagerfeld biographies (I forget which one), the author found the woman who won the suits category in the Woolmark competition alongside them in 1954. Anyway, this girl relegated to being a footnote in history, said she thought Yves cheated... because he had a previous connection to Vogue Paris at the time (Michel de Brunhoff, the editor).

Oh Yves had connections….All the way with his family connections in Oran. It wasn’t simply talent.
Much like I wouldn’t be surprised to know that Karl faced some discrimations being a German. That’s why he changed his name in the beginning of his career.
Yves emerged in a quite xenophobic post war France too.
He was favored but I also think that meeting Pierre Bergé was his biggest blessing because he really the one who created the legend of Yves.

Was it just that Tom was American that Pierre had such an open disdain for him…??? Because frankly, Tom’s YSL was superior in design and branding than anything that Yves himself had been churning out since the 1980s and its overly-licenced garbage in all the midrange department store’s discount aisles. People will always look at a designer’s trajectory through rose-tainted Coke-bottle thick glasses when the designer has passed away, but Yves’ time as a innovative brand was long long long gone by the mid-1980s.

When Tom was at Gucci, Pierre Bergé (and Yves) was supportive. Tom was invited twice if I remember to a Couture show. Pierre Bergé was also very supportive of Gaultier at that time I have to point out too.
If I remember well, Tom attended one of Alber’s show with Pierre Bergé. And he also presented his first collection (resort) to them.

I think one of their mistake was maybe to come with a kind of American arrogance. De Sole criticized some of the business decisions (made by Pierre regarding Rice Gauche to support the Couture) in a public way and they weren’t very tactful at the beginning.

But Tom has always had the support of Betty Catroux for example.

Yves attending Hedi’s first show for Dior was the machiavelious genius of Pierre Bergé. It’s not like they went to attend Alber’s Lanvin shows. And At Lanvin they had Alber but also Elie Top who came from the house.

But they were quite nasty to Tom…Bergé was inventive in the number of stunts he could create to pull a little bit of shine during that period.

Wasn’t the first exhibition at the Foundation Berge-YSL the same day as Tom’s last show?
And I remember at some point they managed to have a small production of RTW sold too.

It was a tough time for Tom personally but I’m not sure his work would have been as great if he didn’t faced that much adversity. I think he delivered some of his best collections ever for both menswear and womenswear at YSL!

 

[LadyJunon]

There’s no doubt that Anna and her ilks were puppeteering certain individuals’ destiny in the industry. Many customers will simply gravitate towards male designers (heterosexual or homo), simply because they’re handsome and charismatic, with a carefully curated lifestyle in their public persona: It’s always been very political in that sense. And that duo fit the bill at the time. People here dismiss them on a whim for stealing from Phoebe and that’s undeniable of course; but at the same time, looking at the separates away from the try-hard styling and presentations, they offer solidly designed and constructed pieces that are worthy investments beyond the gimmicky factors that plague so many coveted brands— Phoebe’s included. Consuelo’s Marni hugely, blatantly ripped off Miuccia’s, and sometimes, improved on it; but no one makes a stink about it. And somehow the Proenza duo ripping off Phoebe is somehow fashion blasphemous LMFAO …As if her Celine wasn't blatantly ripping off-- I mean, "inspired” by Helmut...



Was it just that Tom was American that Pierre had such an open disdain for him…??? Because frankly, Tom’s YSL was superior in design and branding than anything that Yves himself had been churning out since the 1980s and its overly-licenced garbage in all the midrange department store’s discount aisles. People will always look at a designer’s trajectory through rose-tainted Coke-bottle thick glasses when the designer has passed away, but Yves’ time as a innovative brand was long long long gone by the mid-1980s.

Flipping through his "Catwalk" book, I could say that Saint Laurent started losing his edge around '82. From that point, his collections become very visually heavy and stuffy with the huge feathers, embroidery and ballgowns with equally huge sleeves.

It's a shame, since it would've been interesting to see Yves' version of the Punk, Goth and Grunge subcultures. I imagine that's part of the reason why he specifically hired Slimane in the late 90s, because he was more in tune with that modernity.

As for Ford and De Sole, I think that Bergé was extremely protective over Yves and his legacy and the Gucci acquisition and Ford's takeover threatened that image. It didn't help that it led to the departure of what would become two very important designers of the 00s and 10s.

 

[MulletProof]

Interesting the way tfs switched in a couple of decades, this place was unanimously on the side of Yves/Pierre and demonised Tom and Domenico for basically being vulgar corporate vultures. I don’t care about either side but it’s interesting how history can be revised or just filtered out a lot, in a relatively short amount of time…

 

[blueorchid]

Oh Yves had connections….All the way with his family connections in Oran. It wasn’t simply talent.
Much like I wouldn’t be surprised to know that Karl faced some discrimations being a German. That’s why he changed his name in the beginning of his career.

Oh, for sure he had connections and support.

Here's the quote from Colette Bracchi I was referring to, it's from Marie Ottavi's Karl biography:

« Lors d’un cocktail organisé à la Comédie-Française par le comédien Jacques Charon, Karl était furax car Yves avait été mis en valeur par rapport à nous. Or, pour moi, le meilleur dessin était bien celui de Karl Lagerfeld. Il avait fait un manteau jaune vif, splendide. “L’autre”, son dessin n’avait rien de spécial. On savait qu’il avait en fait été pistonné par Michel de Brunhoff. » Le rédacteur en chef de Vogue, maître de l’échiquier mode et accessoirement frère du créateur de Babar, fait et défait les carrières et joue les conseils auprès du jeune Mathieu-Saint-Laurent. Il pense l’introduire auprès de Christian Dior mais veut, d’abord, qu’il apprenne le métier à l’École de la Chambre syndicale. « Ces concours étaient très trafiqués, poursuit Colette. Je les avais déjà tentés et m’en étais aperçue. Car, si vous ne gagnez pas, on vous rend vos dessins. Et sur mon ancien dossier, il était écrit : “Première”, alors que j’avais fini troisième ! Le règlement précisait qu’il ne fallait pas avoir d’accointance avec les maisons de couture. Je n’ai pas sympathisé avec Yves Mathieu-Saint-Laurent, qui était soi-disant timide, j’aimais beaucoup mieux Lagerfeld. Il n’était pas vilain à l’époque. Plus tard, j’ai vu une photo de lui, tout velu, en maillot de bain. Oh quelle horreur ! »

Actually, speaking of Dior... I've always wondered what Christian Dior's plans for Marc Bohan were. From what I understand he was hired just before Christian Dior died (his first day at Dior was like the week after he died or something absurd). People practically act like he was hired off the street after he replaced Yves in 1960, but it surprised me to learn that he'd been working in the industry for quite awhile. Not that he was super successful, but he was experienced! He worked at Piguet and Molenyeux, had his own maison for a bit, and was head designer at Patou briefly. It's not like Christian hired a nobody.

 

[LadyJunon]

Oh, for sure he had connections and support.

Here's the quote from Colette Bracchi I was referring to, it's from Marie Ottavi's Karl biography:

« Lors d’un cocktail organisé à la Comédie-Française par le comédien Jacques Charon, Karl était furax car Yves avait été mis en valeur par rapport à nous. Or, pour moi, le meilleur dessin était bien celui de Karl Lagerfeld. Il avait fait un manteau jaune vif, splendide. “L’autre”, son dessin n’avait rien de spécial. On savait qu’il avait en fait été pistonné par Michel de Brunhoff. » Le rédacteur en chef de Vogue, maître de l’échiquier mode et accessoirement frère du créateur de Babar, fait et défait les carrières et joue les conseils auprès du jeune Mathieu-Saint-Laurent. Il pense l’introduire auprès de Christian Dior mais veut, d’abord, qu’il apprenne le métier à l’École de la Chambre syndicale. « Ces concours étaient très trafiqués, poursuit Colette. Je les avais déjà tentés et m’en étais aperçue. Car, si vous ne gagnez pas, on vous rend vos dessins. Et sur mon ancien dossier, il était écrit : “Première”, alors que j’avais fini troisième ! Le règlement précisait qu’il ne fallait pas avoir d’accointance avec les maisons de couture. Je n’ai pas sympathisé avec Yves Mathieu-Saint-Laurent, qui était soi-disant timide, j’aimais beaucoup mieux Lagerfeld. Il n’était pas vilain à l’époque. Plus tard, j’ai vu une photo de lui, tout velu, en maillot de bain. Oh quelle horreur ! »

Actually, speaking of Dior... I've always wondered what Christian Dior's plans for Marc Bohan were. From what I understand he was hired just before Christian Dior died (his first day at Dior was like the week after he died or something absurd). People practically act like he was hired off the street after he replaced Yves in 1960, but it surprised me to learn that he'd been working in the industry for quite awhile. Not that he was super successful, but he was experienced! He worked at Piguet and Molenyeux, had his own maison for a bit, and was head designer at Patou briefly. It's not like Christian hired a nobody.

A English translation, courtesy of me:

"During a cocktail party organized at the Comédie-Française by the actor Jacques Charon, Karl was furious because Yves had been highlighted over us. However, for me, the best design was definitely that of Karl Lagerfeld. He had made a bright yellow coat, splendid. “The other one”, his design was nothing special. We knew that he had in fact been boosted by Michel de Brunhoff."

The editor-in-chief of Vogue, master of the fashion chessboard and incidentally brother of the creator of Babar*, makes and breaks careers and provides advice to the young Mathieu-Saint-Laurent. He plans to introduce him to Christian Dior but first wants him to learn the trade at the École de la Chambre syndicale.

“These competitions were very rigged,” continues Colette. "I had already tried them and noticed. Because, if you don't win, we'll give you your drawings back. And on my old record, it was written: “First”, even though I finished third! The regulations specified that one should not have any connections with fashion houses. I didn't sympathize with Yves Mathieu-Saint-Laurent, who was supposedly shy, I liked Lagerfeld much more. He was handsome at the time. Later, I saw a photo of him, all hairy, in a swimsuit. Oh what a horror!"

*translator's note: Babar the Elephant is a children's book character created by Jean de Brunhoff, Michel's brother.

 

[LadyJunon]

Actually, speaking of Dior... I've always wondered what Christian Dior's plans for Marc Bohan were. From what I understand he was hired just before Christian Dior died (his first day at Dior was like the week after he died or something absurd). People practically act like he was hired off the street after he replaced Yves in 1960, but it surprised me to learn that he'd been working in the industry for quite awhile. Not that he was super successful, but he was experienced! He worked at Piguet and Molenyeux, had his own maison for a bit, and was head designer at Patou briefly. It's not like Christian hired a nobody.

I personally theorise that Bohan was hired with the intent of designing Dior's eventual lower operations (ready-to-wear, accessories, menswear, product licenses), while Christian (and eventually Yves) focuses on the higher lines (couture and high jewellery). Of course, Christian died and Saint Laurent's designs were too radical for the Dior clientele, so Bohan became the creative director.

I think that the reason behind the general disrespect towards Bohan's Dior is because it's associated with the house's decline and eventual purchase. It's during his tenure that Dior opened their secondary lines and signed numerous licenses. In the same period, Boussac Saint Freres (Dior's first holding company) was bought by Agache-Willot, which was later bought by Bernard Arnault, who dissolved and sold everything but Dior and Bon Marché.

 

[yslforever]

And I remember at some point they managed to have a small production of RTW sold too.

No it was couture, still made by Yves, and which was never bought by Gucci Group or Kering later, because the haute couture company has always been separated from the RTW and held by Yves alone... not even Pierre had shares. But the archives, and many other rights and assets, were hold by this very same haute couture company.
Gucci Group bought YSL in a hurry and overlooked the due-diligence.

 

[LadyJunon]

No it was couture, still made by Yves, and which was never bought by Gucci Group or Kering later, because the haute couture company has always been separated from the RTW and held by Yves alone... not even Pierre had shares. But the archives, and many other rights and assets, were hold by this very same haute couture company.
Gucci Group bought YSL in a hurry and overlooked the due-diligence.

Considering that both of them are dead, who holds the Haute Couture division now and are they willing to sell?

 

[blueorchid]

@LadyJunon From what I understand the Fondation Pierre Bergé - Yves Saint Laurent owns the rights couture division. Frankly, judging by the disastrous attempts to revive some other couture houses, I think it's smart to let it sleep.

 

[yslforever]

Considering that both of them are dead, who holds the Haute Couture division now and are they willing to sell?

A private person, and no, not willing to sell...