Diversity In Fashion Photography

[Deleted member 1957]

^^^ Careful how you dismiss an entire people as viciously racist.

Asians, like ME people, are more conservative and prefer to keep to their own, in general. And that would be a fair assessment if you were to say that. Asians aren’t attacking Black individuals unprovoked in the good ol’ US of A-- teh supposed most woke of all nations... That’s a huge difference to what you’re insinuating. I’m sure if Chinese migrant workers were to be located in African countries, the native citizens there wouldn’t treat them with the utmost respect, nor with open arms. So let’s keep these sorts of accusations of how racist the Chinese are to some Blacks working/living in China with some level of perspective and context. And both Chinese and Black migrant workers in the ME wouldn’t be treated like they were at a University open house tour, let me assure you that. However, having worked in the ME in a more professional and creative environment, I felt most welcomed as an Asian. And yes, I know I wouldn’t be as warmly accepted as I had been if I were a lowly migrant worker.

Anyway, to stay on topic: Let’s be frank— none of the Black/Asian/Brown photographers that are shooting for the high profile fashion publications will ever be the next Avedon/Meisel/Lindbergh. Of course there are talented photographers that are POC: Creative and skilled storytellers with technical experience etc (unfortunately none of them are the chosen hyped ones that are being pushed by all teh fashion rags), but they are simply not anywhere near the talent of the level of the Greats. Just as there are very talented designers that are POC, but they are not the level of the Greats. One can be a fan/loyal customer of Derek Lam and Grace Wales Bonner for example— or one can be a fan of Ramona Rosales (taste is absolutely subject so I find her very art school student subpar), but they simply do not possess the creative vision of McQueen/Ghesquiere/Philo and Avedon/Meisel/Lindbergh. And there’s nothing wrong with that nor am I dismissive of them: They are simply not on the level of the Greats. The industry can keep pushing and hyping Tyler and Nadine all they’d like, but that doesn’t make them any more talented nor ever going to be able to reach the great heights of the Greats.

(And yes, I absolutely agree that these multi-billion conglomerates/empires are manipulating the masses with the profitable, progressive-liberal narrative to pit one side against another, one people against the other to keep them busily divided instead of united, fighting over scraps, while they maintain their status quo. Just watch news for dummies CNN is enough to prove this point.)

What if their approach towards greatness is different? Maybe the new quota for greatness in the 2021 insta era is different from the grand work of the Webers and Avedons.

 

[Deleted member 1957]

What does it take to get there? (serious question)



Like modeling, most if not all of the highly successful photographers from the mid and late 20th century, came from wealthy backgrounds, the sons of business owners, who were joining camera clubs at age 12 and entering the best art schools in their countries. They enjoyed all the time one can possibly have to refine your craft, explore, make mistakes and find your own vocabulary and personality. They also enjoyed a highly exclusive industry, without room for even the upper middle class. You can excel at the one thing you do well and enjoy the most if there's a constant incentive and retribution, and relaxed dynamics and performance demands due to exclusivity. Do we have that now? no, even those in slightly more experimental/art photography have had to comply with fashion demands of 'make EVERYONE happy'.. and that's a lot of (uneducated) people who are after fashion like a dumb and thirsty vulture and on to the next thing as soon as they temporarily satiate that thirst.

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Same thing I was thinking. Many of the 'greats' had the priviledge of growing up in an environment that made it easier to pursue their passions which probably influenced their aesthetic which also came with huge budgets in terms of equipment and production.
Could it be that the new breed of photographers took what they had at their disposal and created something new that is only going to keep getting better? Many of them have a very simple, natural, raw almost candid style which relies on nature and simple props that you can find in your surroundings. Maybe its not a bad thing that they are carving out their own niche just like the great Malik Sidibe whose style was influenced by his surroundings and has now gotten to exhausting levels as far as fashion folks 'getting inspired' by it.

huckmag.com

 

[Deleted member 1957]

^^^ And the most straightup, direct and blunt answer is that there hasn’t been a Black photographer of Meisel's caliber. It’s like asking why isn’t their an Iranian Micheal Jordan because I don't see Iranian representation in the NBA, let alone a breakout player; because there simply isn’t an athlete of Jordan’s calibre amongst Iranians. And I suppose to answer your question: That’s the “level” of high standard I’m speaking of.

IMO there are great photographers of Black, Asian and Hispanic heritage whose work is on the same level as any of the greats but at the time the greats were ruling over all the publications their colour didn't get them into the exclusively white fashion industry.

https://www.crfashionbook.com/fashion/g32770725/black-fashion-photographers-history/
Black Photographers Kwami Brathwaite Carrie Mae Weems – Black Fashion Photographers Throughout History


Now that there is a little 'change' the editors and readers seem more interested in being more buzz worthy than producing epic content. Maybe times have changed and the definitions of whats tasteful and what is good have shifted which has led to the industry following suit to avoid drowning.

 

[Phuel]

^^^Your taste/preference/standard is as valid as mine. I won’t disagree with your personal preference at all in terms of whom you considered worthy of being great. At this point, we will have to respectfully agree to disagree on what our own personal standard of excellence is.

If we are only discussing Black icons of the industry— without the need to compare them to other icons, then there will always be the likes of Koto Bolofo, Pat McGrath, Oswald Boateng. They have maintained and developed their own aesthetic and unique identity that remains incomparable to anyone else. And that’s the important and poignant distinction that they relevantly possessed: It’s theirs alone, without the need to be the “Black” counterpart to their “White” comparison. And that’s my standard in terms of “greatness", I suppose. I’m drawn to talent and not the race/gender/sexuality of the vessel of the talent.

 

[MulletProof]

IMO there are great photographers of Black, Asian and Hispanic heritage whose work is on the same level as any of the greats but at the time the greats were ruling over all the publications their colour didn't get them into the exclusively white fashion industry.
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It's just hard to even compare them to these legendary fashion photographers if they were not afforded or voluntarily pursued the same line of photography (fashion in this case), so that makes it hard to talk about their disadvantages in opportunities and creative potential. They were never in similar positions of resources and outlets so one can only speculate on how good they could've been had they landed these gigs in fashion..

Many of them (like some of those in your link) either by choice but most likely because it was not as elitist and discriminatory as fashion has been, remained documentary photographers.. capturing everyday life. Errol Sawyer's work was featured in Vogue and Elle but ultimately his impact and I assume, preference, remained on the street, which personally I consider of greater value given the level of segregation and civil unrest in those years, when you see what your people are going through, it makes fashion seem so minuscule and silly. So I wouldn't exactly say 'he would've been as great as Avedon'.. who knows if he even wanted that!, but if we are to make a comparison, with contemporaries in the same line of photography and subjects, I'd say his work is far more poignant and definitely less recognized than Bruce Davidson's.

I do feel a bit like Phuel in regards to the more contemporary mentality "who cares if it's good, what matters it's representation, let's just be happy it's a black/hispanic/asian photographer!!"... I was thankfully spared from that quota mentality the US has cultivated and is now being adopted by every Western country, I don't think it truly helps anyone in a sincere, long-term way; you can't sustain something or someone that is simply chosen by race, changes should have deeper roots, they're not decoration. And personally, I don't think it's remotely flattering (and I've experienced this based on many things I won't get into but mostly gender) to feel that 'phew! we're so happy we have someone like you here, it just makes our company look so good, and don't worry, everyone here is subjected to very high standards but good news, there are NO standards for you, just keep it very very simple so we don't have to think of people like you.. but do make sure everyone knows it came from someone like you!'. I'm sure there are nicer ways of wording that and that an opportunity remains an opportunity regardless of the intent, but.. yeah I don't find that positive, or flattering.