"Elusive Butterfly": what is woman, Femininity and that shimmering on the surface...

you've only managed to convince me more that you are objectifying women...
livelessness, facelessness, even headlessness, lack of sensation, doll like,... sounds like the definition of object to me...

but i still love you, sweetie...:P

and in response to the question turned back upon me: is the depiction of the female body an objectification per se...not necessarily, but again i think it depends upon the gaze...and who is doing the gazing...it's a two way street...

and no i still don't get your perspective on androgyny...anything can be commodified and consumed by the reproducing machine..just look at the commercialization of depictions of che guevara for example...a revolutionary who has been turned into a pop icon :yuk: androgyny still represents a site of possibility for me...one that potentially allows for the proliferation of lines of flight!!
 
And I still love you..:P .. eventhough you are using terms like object/subject distinction... I would prefere to not even talk about subjects and objects... and especially not in a dualistic way... you know I hate that:lol:
And this is properly also why you would say that I have convinced you even more, that I objectifie women, because of your dualistic definition of the terms... and also as I said it the head is a spirit in bodily form:P :flower:

I hope you are right about the androgyny and it's creative possibilities, that line of flight, an event making machine...:P ... maybee Im gonna step on somebody's feet now, but here we go, as we have seen with the gay movement, feminist movement, punk movement as subcultures, as potential lines of flight, as a way to disrupt and escape gender issues, biological repressentation, sexuality.. and other definition mechanisms, has been reterritorialized... they were not able to escape those striated spaces...^_^
 
nothing can escape striated spaces...we can only strive for the smooth but never quite achieve it...that's my belief anyway...

dualism, well, we'll have to agree to disagree...i'm not bound to dualism...humanity is...alas...but again as we tease out the details multitudes i think we are both heading in the same direction(s)...or striving to...
 
yes.. the striated spaces we can't escape.. but when we are there.. we shold catch the next line of flight out.. and not get stuck...
so lets tease out some more... femininity as a potential line of flight... the elusive butterfly... let's here some more thoughts..
 
Sweets said:
i dont think im bright enough to answer this question (or to comprehend the original post)

:lol: I got confused just from reading the title...


Multitudes said:
In western dominant cultures/societies the woman has been defined through her body, her ability to reproduce, the household, nature while the male has been defined by truth, intellect, power, culture, language, representation and sexuality

I think that concept has probably been left in the 20th century. You only need to look at government statistics, etc, to see that the idea of what it is to be a woman has completely changed in the last 50 years or so.


Multitudes said:
What he reads into the dance, are the possibilities for disrupting established 'spaces' and escaping the male surveillance

:huh: wtf?


Multitudes said:
And maybe this livelessness is my way of avoiding this, which I so desperately is trying to avoid, for not falling for erotic and p*rn*gr*ph*c clichees

You're kidding me, right? As much as I like your drawings, they hit upon almost every single erotic clichee there is; and they definately 'offend' (I'm using that term extremely loosely) me more than Klimts work (which doesn't offend me at all), because the ideas your drawings connote are much more sexual in a way that seems demeaning to women. I know you're not easily offended (at least I hope you're not :unsure: !!), so I don't mind telling you that I think your work has a bit of a 'sad man perving' vibe to it ... but you're clearly a talented artist though :P .


And as for your views on androgyny ... you're thinking about it way too much ... its broken barriers to create a sense of equality to an extent, but its not going to create a huge impact on the structure of the world and social structures ... it just doesn't matter. But androgyny's hot so thanks for the pic electric!
 
What you wrote in the first post was so beautiful..."not bound to any truth...or any definable mechanisms that men have constructed to hold things into place". Why not leave it at that? Words and definitions are just that: "man-made" mechanisms that hold beauty, truth, into place, and thus limit their scope pitifully. You said it yourself. I mean, even just the concept of "androgyny" seems so contrived...all it does is add a third dimention to the dualistic mentality. Why can't we just be human, just...life itself? Isn't the whole beauty of art that it expresses what words cannot? I strongly believe art should speak for itself...and that art communicates far more powerfully than do words......you have your dance and art; so what was the point of this discussion again?

Are you trying to intellectualize concepts and base our discussion on pre-formed concepts, theories, and constructs, because...as your "livelessness" strategy suggests...you are afraid of confronting your own perhaps mundane male paradigms that may emerge if you allow yourself to express yourself fully in art? There's nothing wrong with that...it's what you resist that persists, as they say...and there may in fact turn out to be more objective truth--whatever that is-- in such expression.

I don't mean to confront you personally or anything, I'm really sorry if I say anything offensive; I hope you understand.:flower: :blush: Socio-politically speaking, I think this is an important issue but I just don't think this discussion is very useful. As an artist, a feminist and an ex-philosophy major for some reason I feel annoyingly compelled to keep coming back here...:P

We should *all* just be dancers...and *dance* our own ideas of femininity, of beauty, of truth. If we want change, let that be the medium of our discourse, not boxed-in rhetoric. I agree with Edward Said that it's art that plants the seeds of political change. Commercialism aside, isn't that what fashion is really about?
 
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Stix... happy to see you joining in.. and as I have told you, no I don't get offended that easily..:flower:

yes ofcourse this is an outdated view on what is woman, and how we have been defining femininity, but we had to start from somewhere....

That is the point of using klimt as an example, he doesn't 'offend' you at all. He is pleasing to the eyes, with no complications or any disruption. But what he does offers you, is an very uncomplicated eroticism.His soft, caressing line emphasizes the "femininity" and passivity of his women who lie, more often than not, luxurating on rich and delicate materials, their faces transfixed by sensual delight> The spectator is both voyeur and potential participant. There is free access for the gaze, without any disturbance. It is no doubt pimarily the psycological expression of srlf-forgetfullness that promotes the emotional detachment of Klimt's subject from the artist's and thus from the viewer. Their eyes are mostly closed, they look at no one, they seem to exist by them selves alone and for their own pleasure.
This illusion, that pleasure depicted exists in isolation from the artist who depicts it, is one Egon Schiele abolishes through his forced emphasis on the model-viewer relationship. Where Klimt's models hardly ever catch the voyeur at all, Schiele's women give us an unblinking stare. The viewer of Schiele's nudes is not really a voyeur at all; the situation staged by Schiele, that of modelling in his studio, has nothing secret. Of course, both Klimt as well as Schiele or any artist for that matter who works with live models, have the model's body at their entire disposal. But in Klimt's drawings he conceals him selfs behind his own pictorial idea, and behind the fantasy of secretly eavesdropping on an erotic act; In Schiele, the artist is always there. Not only the portraits but the nudes, even the back viewa, react with and offer themselves to the viewer. Also Klimt's nudes are always placed in recognisable surroundings, which makes it even more accesable and pleasing to the eye, where as schiele and for my self, the nudes are taken out of the interior, to confuse, disrupt and make you uneasy. Schiele even Turned is draings around, so the lying nude, suddenly stood up to confuse the eye evenmore. That is why I have always, prefered Schiele because you can ask your self what is more 'offensive'... presenting the pleasuring female aleays available and uninterupted to your disposal or a female that stares back at you, striped away from any pleasuring clichees? But I'm not here to judge my own work, that's not up to me..:P

It's sad to here your giving up on potential disrupting possibilities in relatioon to th Androgyny... as an even creating machine:lol:

Anyway, enough artlecture for today, I'm off to see flamenco, Femininity in movement...:lol: :P :flower:
 
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*~stix~* said:
You're kidding me, right? As much as I like your drawings, they hit upon almost every single erotic clichee there is; and they definately 'offend' (I'm using that term extremely loosely) me more than Klimts work (which doesn't offend me at all), because the ideas your drawings connote are much more sexual in a way that seems demeaning to women. I know you're not easily offended (at least I hope you're not :unsure: !!), so I don't mind telling you that I think your work has a bit of a 'sad man perving' vibe to it ... but you're clearly a talented artist though :P

ouch!

Melisande said:
Are you trying to intellectualize concepts and base our discussion on pre-formed concepts, theories, and constructs, because...as your "livelessness" strategy suggests...you are afraid of confronting your own perhaps mundane male paradigms that may emerge if you allow yourself to express yourself fully in art?

double ouch!

but i concur...(especially since i now know that you are not easily offended, Multitudes.)

and *~stix~* you're welcome for the pic! one of these days i'm gonna get around to some scanning and hit up the Omahyra thread. :P
 
:rofl:
I find this very amusing... I can understand why Melisande that you ask what is the point with this discussion, because this thread has suddenly turned into a discussion on Multitudes and his art:lol: ...and that is not the point at all:flower: Another thing I find quit amusing is that you ladies only find it necessary to comment on my posts, is that because Im the only man here? that you don't like men to speak on behalf of women? is my post really that provoking?... also I don't understand as you also addressed your self Melisande, why none of you comes with your own idea or even discuss these issues with eachother???... so if you want to discuss me and my art I suggest you make a new thread, called "Multitued and his art":lol: :flower: and I will gladly come and rip you to pieces..:wink: :flower:
Electricladyland as your song you posted said, it's only a game...:flower:

Before we move on to the disscussion at hand, I will just respond to you all about the term livelessness which for some reason has provoked you...

First of all, the term 'livelessness', has nothing to do with "The death of the subject" or "without spirit" etc.. as you might think it is( and for me to hear your comments, no offence, makes me think you haven't read my posts properly...) on the contrary it's filled with spirit(an animal spirit), it lies outside the subject and replaces it.. The term is use as an attempt to exploring possibilities for desubjectification. Subjectification depends upon language which functions as a kind of stratum out of which subjects can be build(Descartes Cogito). This 'livelessness' is an aim to escape the stratum of subjectivication, rather than undermine or overthrow them, with replacing conjungations with connections. The oedipalized(if I may call it that..)subject is defined by series of boundaries or prohibitions that limit the possible range of thought and desire, hence what you also said Melisande about language; one is told what one is allowed to think and whom one is allowed to desire. Each conjugation reinforces the sense of identity. For me transgressing the boundary, adopting the daring stance of rebellion, has little importance in it self, for wether one accepts or rejects the prohibition, one's identity is still formed on the basis. Instead of directing desires towards either permissible or forbidden persons, we should encourage the connection of desires to determinations which are not signified by the range of statements at all. One enter pacts with the many - the necessary condition is that such flows can never become the subjects of statements(whicch also will give you the answer that yes art shoul lie outside language), even though they maybe territorial and expressive. Desire no longer flows betweeen subjects who to greater or lesser degree express a normalized, majoritan ideal, desire is no longer simulated by resonnance of subjects of statements. Instead, desire is territorial and mechinic: one desires something together with which one can function in order to produce something. There is no need to to dismantle the assemblage which has produced a subject; desubjectification works immediately on any kind of striated assemblage. For as soon as one reterritorializes on a heterogeneous mode of life, then the machinic assemblage which had produced the strata is significantly changed by gaining another component with which it will function. Resonance and subjectification is blocked, and the new assemblage begins to produce statements escaping from dominant discourses. The Subject of enunciation cannot be identified, for it is collective, resulting from the connection of various heterogeneous parts. New kinds of subjectivity are produced which are closer to the modes of existence of animals and rocks than humans. At this point we should invokke modes of consciousness which are excluded from majoritarian reason: dreams, pathological, processes, esoteric experiences, intoxication, rapture, or excess. The aim of desubjectification, or what I called 'livelessness'(which might be a too radical term to use) is not to deconstruct consciousness, but to discover other modes of consciousness beyond the confines of normalization. We should create a collective subject instead of a singularity. A multitude of connections.... That is also why psychoanalazies should be disregarded because it is the highest degree of reducing the multiple to a singularity.... Just watch Freud in his reduction procedure... A Wolf Man!!!... Who is ignorant of the fact that wolves travel in packs? Only Freud. Every child knows it. Not Freud..:lol:
You might ask me how this come into play in my art... htis is very simpel to answer...in my technique I use, which consist of multiple parts(small squares), that connects in this assemblage, in the process of becoming woman... and it also constitute it self in the connections between me becoming other in the procees of working, the paper, the pencils, the model and the surroundings which creates the work...

I do think we need to reference, not to intellectualize, but merely to bring the discussion into perspective and context, because it would be a lie not to take anything else but our selves into acount, hence my discussion on subjectivity and the connection of multiple parts I have just touched upon above... but certainly it is very important to bring in our own ideas... and yes "let that be the medium of our discourses":flower:

Melisande where did all that talk about fear... and my mundane male paradigmes come from?:lol: which may emerge if you allow yourself to express your self fully in art?... I think I have answered that question above in the longer paragraph...

Yes it would be nice to dance, but unfortunately we are sitting in different corners of the world with our computers and the only tools we have is words and pictures to express our selves with...
I would love to bid you up for a waltz... or do you tango?:heart: :flower:

And yes the ultimate goal of the revolution of desire is 'life as a work of art'. Every production of a work of art follows a line of flight, escaping dominant presuppositions. For the artist has seen something 'intolerable' in life that shatters the security of a fixed subject of enunciation, wether this 'intolerable' is the banality of every day life, some terrible evil or catastrophe, or the actual conditions and inequalities of capatalism... So yes art do plant seeds or roots...

And melisane thank you for your starting comment:flower: .. and the point initially for this discussion was to create a multible body of thoughts on femininity... a collective subject... a becoming woman... Join the many... join the multitude:flower:
 
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My Ideas On "what Is Woman"

Morning XXVII
Naked, you are simple as one of your hands,
smooth, earthy, small, transparent, round:
you have moon-lines, apple-pathways:
naked, you are slender as a naked grain of wheat.

Naked, you are blue as a night in Cuba;
you have vines and stars in your hair;
naked you are spacious and yellow
as summer in a golden church.

Naked, you are tiny as one of your nails -
curved, subtle, rosy, till the day is born
and you withdraw to the underground world,

as if down a long tunnel of clothing and of chores:
your clear light dims, gets dressed - drops its leaves -
and becomes a naked hand again.

-- Pablo Neruda


^ That poem...

Being haunting, sensual, erotic, sexual, desirable..

Smelling of perfume and smoke (thats me talking)
Curves of the body, hips..breasts...
Sultry eyes, mystery concealed within..stubborness, charm

I always consider 'woman' as a being.. something that you write poetry about.. sing about.. paint.. could just be me though.
 
softgrey said:
hmmm...shades of grey???....
SOFT grey???...


^_^...
long live androgyny...
i don't think it is possible to define these things...
but i hope you all have fun trying...

:wink:

well, my thoughts are in line with yours... as eccentric as it sounds, and maybe unrelated at all, men have these feminine tendencies as well... this would be interesting to read... ^_^
 
^ Good point. Personally i dont believe human beings are born with a sexual preference. I think the heart wants what it wants.. and attraction transcends sex.

I think that what defines a woman can also define a man...ok certain body parts have to be altered but all beings are really the same.
 
Here is an excellent text on the subject:

Men are from Earth, and So are Women

by Aileen O'Carroll (WSM-Ireland)

Gender is not as it appears in the popular media and general conversations

How different are men and women? Very, according to some. John Gray’s book “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” is based on the idea that there are fundamental differences between the genders. It may be just another self-help book on relationships, but it has also sold over 30 million copies and been translated into 40 languages.

A key starting point for any group, movement or society who want to mobilise the full potential and creativity of humanity is to challenge the gendered nature of roles. This begins when we challenge the idea that the differences between the genders are based on biology, rather than experience.

Women are under-represented in anarchist groups throughout the world, and this means our movements are considerably weaker as we are losing the point of view, the experiences, the skills and understandings of a large portion of humanity.

In a less obvious way, many men in the anarchist movement were and are, gender blind. That is they do not realise that their own way of seeing the world is coloured by their own gender and aren’t aware of or interested in understanding other perspectives. While we all naturally make sense of the world from the point of view of our own experiences, we also need to be able to realise that our experiences aren’t universal. Deborah Tannen’s book “You Just Don’t Understand: Men and Women in Conversation” was on the New York Times bestseller list for nearly four years and has been translated into 24 languages. Pope Benedict, when still a cardinal (and an obvious expert on gender) in a statement on the role of women wrote that women’s characteristics were “listening, welcoming, humility, faithfulness, praise and waiting” in the first statement published by the Catholic church on the role of women in a decade. In January 2005, the president of Harvard argued that women were underrepresented in science because biologically they weren’t as capable at scientific thinking as men. During his time as President the number of tenured jobs offered to women at Harvard fell from the low 36% to the even lower 13%.

While we may not care very much about the pope or pop-psychology, their ideas carry weight with large segments of the world’s population.
The idea that men and women are fundamentally different can also be found on the left. Some women’s peace groups, such as the Greenham Common women, base their activity on women’s supposed opposition to war and violence.Or to take a more recent example, some of the supporters of the centre-left President of Chile Michelle Bachelet, argued that as a women she is better able to multi-task and thus more able for the job; "She is going to take the reins of this country as if it were a big house. She is going to manage us well. Look at us men, we do one thing at a time, while the mom is cooking, talking on the phone, feeding the children and listening to the radio!"

If you just listened to popular media and general conversations, you would expect the genders to be worlds apart. Yet a study by Shibley Hyde found far more similarities than differences. This article looks at this research, and then asks in the light of it why might the idea of gender difference be so popular presently.

Mostly the same

Published in the “American Psychologists” in September 2005, the research challenges the idea that men and women are very different psychologically. Shibley Hyde reviewed the results from 46 surveys and concluded that men and women are similar on most, but not all, psychological variables.
Arguments about the roles that men and women play in society often revolve around whether these roles are due to nature (our genetic make up) or nurture (the type of society we live in). The implication of this research is to overturn the idea that male and female roles are connected to particular characteristics of men or women.

In 1974 Maccoby and Jacklin analysed the results from over 2,000 psychological studies on gender difference and in doing so they overturned many myths; girls aren’t more social than boys, neither are they more suggestible, girls aren’t any better at learning off by heart, boys aren’t good at more abstract learning, girls don’t have lower self esteem and it is not true that girls lack motivation.

In all they found only four areas where gender differences were evident; verbal ability, visual-spatial ability, mathematical ability and aggression. Yet despite the fact that overwhelmingly their story was one of similarity, almost all reports of their work focused on the differences.

So why if genders, in the main, behave similarly are they perceived to be different?

Same behaviour, different perceptions

One explanation for this is that the meaning attached to the behaviour varies depending on whether you are a man or a woman. So, for example, if a woman isn’t good at map reading, this is seen to be proof that women are less spatially aware. If a man isn’t good at map reading, well it’s just one of those things that he’s not very good at. I once asked a teenage boy what toys he played with as a child. Like most boys, he played with action man. He went on to say that he thought action man was ‘cool’, while Barbie was stupid. Despite the fact that both toys are essentially the same –a piece of plastic representing a person – to him the possibilities and meanings attached to the male toy were far more positive than the female toy. Mars and Venus are the same place, they are just seen from different perspectives.

What does it mean to come from Venus?

Society attributes different meanings to similar behaviours. In fact, even stranger, society is quite happy to talk about very different behaviours as if they were all similar. So for example, what to people mean when they say ‘women’s work’?

One certain thing that can be said about gender roles, despite the Mars/Venus clichés, is that they vary greatly between different cultures, classes and change over time. Venus seems to be a number of radically different planets. In Ireland, nursing is a women’s profession, in southern Italy most nurses are men. This is because in the south of Italy, labour market shortages were so great, that one of the few jobs available was nursing, and as traditionally men were seen as the major bread-owners, these became seen as ‘male’.

The daughter of a manual labourer on a poor Dublin housing estate is more likely to see her role in terms of motherhood and so will often start her family early in life. In contrast the daughter of a doctor might be expected to go to university, and establish a career before she has children. And on the other end of the scale, the role of Paris Hilton, the daughter of a multi-millionaire, seems to be to be thin, shop and act stupid.

Over time, the role women were expected to play within capitalism has varied. In the early factories they were valued (as were children) as a cheap form of labour. Then they were moved to the home, where their role was to provide all the social care and support required to keep the workforce ticking over.

So for example, in the US during the depression working women were accused of taking men’s jobs. Although the numbers of women working outside the home increased gradually from the 1900s, in general this was acceptable only for single women. In Ireland, it wasn’t until the early 1970s that married women were allowed to continue working in the public sector. When women were in paid employment, it was in those sectors that mirrored their role in the home such as domestic work, or caring work such as nursing. But the idea that women’s role was in the home has been overturned at certain points.

This happened most dramatically during World War Two when propaganda extolled the virtues of women working – in fact, the skills they used at home were argued to be the same as the skills needed in the workplace. Alice Kesser Harris explains, “They were induced into the labour force with a rhetoric which played on their housewifely role. For example, they were told that operating a drill press was just like operating a can opener; that wielding a welding torch, for example, was just like operating a mix-master might have been; that a drill press was like an iron.”

After the war, although in the US 75% of women said they would like to keep their jobs, about 90 % ended up being forced to leave. Once again women’s place was in the home.

Today women make up a greater part of the labour force than ever before. In the west, manufacturing has declined, while service industries and knowledge industries have grown. Throughout the world women are paid less than men and in order to attract cheaper female labour, women’s characteristics are once more being re-defined as useful on the labour market. So for example, women are argued to be good listeners and empathic, and so make good call centre employees, or women are good at multitasking and so suited to IT work; an article on Microsoft’s webpage argues that “Biology, upbringing make women more flexible” and so they are better managers.”

In fact there is a certain irony that as the workplace is becoming more female, the idea that genders are very different seems to be gaining increasing popularity (or at least, if the sales of John Gray’s books are anything to go by).

The idea of gender differences can be used to either exclude women (as in the position of women in Harvard) or to attract more women (as in the call centre workers). The malleability of the idea of difference, and the different political uses to which it is put, should make us very wary of arguments that take difference as their starting point.

Mostly the same, a little different, what next?

So far I’ve been arguing that the similarities are far greater than the difference, but that doesn’t mean that differences don’t exist or that they aren’t important. Women and men are treated differently in society and this different experience affects the roles that women and men play. In her study, Shibley Hyde conducted a review of 46 studies, each of which themselves was a review of other studies. Hundreds of reports were involved. She grouped her data into six categories and set about seeing if she could find any evidence of difference. The categories were: those studies that assessed cogitative variables; that assessed verbal and non-verbal communication; that assessed social or personality variables; that assessed measures of psychological well-being (for example self-esteem); that assessed motor behaviour (for example, how far can you throw a ball) and finally a category of miscellaneous reports, such as ‘moral reasoning’.

As with the earlier Maccoby and Jacklin study, she found gender differences in a few very specific areas. The first area is, not surprisingly, throwing ability. Men can throw a ball further and faster than women. The second area was found in some measures of sexuality – men masturbate more and have different attitudes to casual sex. The third and final area was in levels of aggression, in particular in levels of physical aggression.

Differences aren’t stable

They also found that in some areas there are little differences in childhood, but differences develop in the teenage years. So for example, in high school, a small difference emerges favouring males in terms of solving complex problems. This small variation in differences over time, Shibley Hyde argues, overthrows ‘the notions that gender differences are large and stable’ (p588), that men have permanently set up camp on Mars which is a great distance from Venus.

The study also highlights the importance of context in determining gender differences.

So for example, averaging out over all the studies, it was found that men helped more. But if the studies were separated into those where the helping occurred when onlookers were present, and those where onlookers were absent, it was found that a large gender difference only occurred when onlookers were present.

This difference, she argues, can be explained by looking at social roles – in western society ‘heroism’ is seen as a masculine attribute, which means that men are more likely to help others when they are doing it in a public way that might be interpreted as heroic. The difference in one trait ‘helping others’ can be large, favouring males, or close to zero, depending on the social context in which that trait occurs.

Similar differences were found when looking at interruptions to conversations – very little difference were found in groups of two, and small differences were found in groups of three and more. Again the social context affects the behavioural response – and the idea that there are fixed male and female responses, which we are all hardwired to perform, is undermined.

******
References:
A woman's place is to wait and listen, says the Vatican :sick:
John Hooper and Jo Revill, Sunday August 1, 2004, The Observer
Interview with Alice Kessler Harris: http://www.pbs.org/fmc/interviews/kesslerharris.htm
Sadker, M and Sadker, D (1994) Failing at Fairness: How America’s Schools Cheat Girls, Scribner.
 
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The presumption of a binary gender system implicitly retains the belief in a mimetic relation of gender to sex whereby gender mirrors sex or is otherwise restricted by it. When the constructed status of gender is theorized as radically independent of sex, gender itself becomes a free-floating artifice, with the consequence that man and masculine might just as easily signify a female body as a male one, and woman and feminine a male body as easily as a female one.

Judith Butler, Gender Trouble
 
moved...
seems like this thread belongs in personal style...

:flower:
 
the only way to find true freedom and identity AS a woman--true feminism if you will-- is to listen to my own core being...neither the male-dominated society nor the feminist discourse. I no longer think we can discuss femininity or masculinity except as very localized cultural constructs or biologically based ideas.

Absolutely.

I'm a little offended by the title of this thread...while it is flattering, it seems to emphasize only an aspect of womanhood, perhaps the characteristic most striking to most men. Thank you for the compliment, but men can also be charming (even "shimmering"), and women are also so much more than elusive creatures of desire :rolleyes:.

I think to define "woman", one really has to define her as a person first. I definitely think there are differences between men and women, but not enough to render our similarities, as someone else said, completely null.
 

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