Established Designers That You Just Don't "get"?

[PrinceOfCats]

Don't we already have one?

 

[Orochian]

Originally posted by MJCouture+Apr 22nd, 2004 - 9:04 am--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MJCouture @ Apr 22nd, 2004 - 9:04 am)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by purplelucrezia@Apr 22nd, 2004 - 12:26 am
<!--QuoteBegin-Orochian

@Apr 22nd, 2004 - 12:24 am
Fashion isn't art.  Clothes are created to be worn.  They have to faciliate our daily life while we're wearing them.  Creating clothes that no one would wear just for theatrics on the runway is pointless and futile.  Period.

How very glad I am that you're not in charge of the runways...

Me too. If you don't think fashion is art, than why don't you just go to Banna Republic? They have plenty of decently attractive, un awe-inspiring pieces that I am sure you would love Orochian. [/b][/quote]


Gosh when will these uninformed people finally realize that fashion is not ART, it's DESIGN? And that doesn't mean fashion shouldn't be innovative, for design is the very essence of innovation. But being different for the sake of being different, like 99% of Galliano's work, certainly is no innovation - it's futile deviation. Genuine innovation requires something much more precise, studied, and calculated.

There's already an existing thread on this and I won't waste any more of my energy explaining something that should be blatantly obvious. If you insist on calling fashion "art", and thereby ignore the concensus among design practitioners, some of whom have come to define modern culture through their work, then go ahead, be ignorant. Fashion as art is nothing but a self-serving romantic pretense.

Thanks for your suggestion MJ, but I don't do Banana Republic. I'm more of a Helmut Lang and Jil Sander person - I appreciate constructive, measured, precise, intelligent design, instead of the vulgar freakshows you seem to applaud.

I wouldn't go wrap mysef in logos and Burberry plaids either. Fashion victim much?

 

[PrinceOfCats]

I think you have to accept that there is no 'accepted' opinion on whether or not fashion is art, Orochian. Yohji Yamamoto indirectly says that he believes fashion to be art in an interview with iD magazine...he might not be any good at making clothes but I imagine he's fairly well informed on the subject of fashion...

 

[Orochian]

Originally posted by MJCouture@Apr 22nd, 2004 - 10:00 am
but I would never critisize a designer just because my tastes were different than what they put down the runway. Now I am sick of this thread.

Criticism is constructive as long as there are rational supporting arguments, which don't seem to be in abundance in your posts.

If you can't even muster up the guts and come up with the logic to criticise what you find troubling in the world, you might as well be silent your entire life.

But apparently that's not true, since you had no trouble attempting to criticize me for expressing my personal opinions, to which I'm perfectly entitled, and are backed up with rational observations.

You're truly a study in contradiction.

 

[Orochian]

Originally posted by PrinceOfCats@Apr 22nd, 2004 - 3:34 pm
Yohji Yamamoto indirectly says that he believes fashion to be art in an interview with iD magazine...he might not be any good at making clothes but I imagine he's fairly well informed on the subject of fashion...

As I said, that's nothing but self-serving romantic pretense to make up for a lack of true design skills.

If I get a dime for every time when an undergrad architecture student tells me I'm not "getting" their design proposals because they're "art"...

 

[PrinceOfCats]

Then you think that Yohji has no 'true design skills'...you also dislike Yamamoto?

 

[Orochian]

I do not "dislike" him; but I'm don't find his work particularly impressive either.

But my impression of his work has no relation to my comment - my statement is strictly targeted at the blatantly wrong belief that "fashion is art".

Clothes that have no regard to the human body and their place in the wearer's life are as absurd as a chair created to be looked at, instead of sat upon, or a house to fill up a block, instead of being inhabited.

If a designer has such a lack of regard to the functional aspects of fashion, he/she should probably divert his/her attention to a true art form with no functional requirements, like sculpture.

 

[PrinceOfCats]

But my impression of his work has no relation to my comment - my statement is strictly targeted at the blatantly wrong belief that "fashion is art".

Yes, however you say that those who believe that what you believe to be design is actually art are simply covering up their lack of design skills. Yamamoto believes fashion to be art yet he clearly does have design skills.

Personally, I think that vaunting fashion as art is rather dangerous on the whole however from the above you have to conclude that it is not 'blatant' that fashion is not art, it is simply your opinion. A top designer like Yamamoto is not an uniformed idiot - he clearly has reasons for believing fashion to be art.

N.B.

Note that I do not argue a case for fashion either being or not being art. I am simply arguing that it is not 'accepted' that fashion is not art and this should be noted.

 

[Scott]

I agree that fashion is not art. But I also don't think fashion cannot be used as medium like any other. Clothes can still sell or reach a multitude of individuals and still be creative. What's more,those in the indie sector do indeed have their work out there with a faithful following. So that mainstream nonsense you speak about means nothing,unless you're talking about endless praise in Vogue or the banality of places like Gap.

To add,some of those designers you mentioned are not of the established anyway,so their work will hardly be rendered as mainstream.

And no,Kawakubo IS NOT my favorite designer. I admire her for her spirit but the clothes do nothing for me,to be perfectly honest.

 

[Spike413]

To comment on Yohji or Rei, I have no doubt that they have skills as a designer, but I do see what Orochian is saying in that they're a bit too artistic about fashion and while I feel that fashion should have some sort of artistic creativity, when it becomes art over fashion, it's hard to take in and seems to come off in a pretensious way. I know many people have strong feelings about commercial fashion, it only becomes commercial becuase it's things that people can actually wear which is esentially the point of fashion. Not many people can wear something made by a Yamamoto or Kawakubu because of the fact that what they create is more art then fashion.

 

[ultramarine]

Fashion = Art?
Well... if you regard art from its origins ..it comes from the greek (kisses to Lena) and it means "technique" then fashion IS art ..if you regard art in the way Damien Hirts and modern artists view it then ... who knows!
As I've said previously, I see clothing as a form of communication, but isn't it art's purpose as well? saying something ... there are clothes who are pieces of art (no doubt about it), but there are others which may not ... it's all in the eyes of the beholder, to some people pop art is crap, other think is stroke of genius, same with fashion ... I like to think there are many grey areas in both disciplines ...

Oh! And about designers I dont get ... Helmut Lang gets my vote ...season after season, I go WTF?
(But I know its a me thing)
Oh, well!

 

[ignitioned32]

I think basically people do not understand Rei Kawakubo.
To quote Astrid21

I was recently reading a small bio on Rei and CdG and one her quotes really stuck for me. She said, and I paraphrase,  "For something to be beautiful it doesn't have to pretty". In my head I keep saying it over and over again -- I totally see what she's saying. People often apply the term "avant-garde" to something that is weird or out of the norm, and it is, but they don't say it with the same authentic take that others give it. I enjoy looking at fashion and articles of clothing as if they were works of art. So people who view something as unwearable really don't "get" what these vangaurd designers are trying and succeeding to achieve, imo. To each their own.

I love Rei's work. I love her concepts; the fact that in everything that she created she challenged the notion that fashion was meant to beautify or be beautiful (from TIME). The fact that she believes that fashion should express something other than sexuality, too.

I think she's a genius and ahead of her time (I sometimes think she could be the Coco Chanel of our generation). Where she ventures, other designers will inevitably follow.

 

[pennyfei]

There should not be so much doubt about Mr Jacobs and Mr Galliano because of the recognition and public acceptance they've gotten in the past 10 years.
Martin Margiela, that's a different genre as someone may find it utterly unsettling but I still think he is not overrated! Look at what he did for Hermes and you know he is an able designer! (despite his strange habits)
Donatella, I think anyone can get what she is doing! Pure sexy or SKANKY??? Whatever, the name Versace is great enough that Donatella does not need to worry too much about the true quality of the clothes.
I have tremendous respect for Mr Cavalli because of his ability to imagine and fantasize sexy figures! His most recent collections are outstanding comparing to some previous ones!
The ones I don't get is Dqsuared! I don't know why! Dean and Dan Caten? Who are they?

 

[tott]

Originally posted by ignitioned32@Apr 23rd, 2004 - 7:01 am
I think basically people do not understand Rei Kawakubo.

I'm sorry, but I find that a bit patronizing somehow...

People have different views and philosophies, just because they don't "get" something doesn't mean they don't understand. This is not a matter of right or wrong.

 

[ahhGucci]

Its like Damien Hurst. Some people may think I am ignorant for not getting his work. And I think they are ignorant for thinking that it is art.
At the end of the day, I am right and you are wrong.

Its all a matter of opinion you see. In an arguement about opinion, the (more)arrogant one always seems to win, but it is futile arguing opinion, sharings best.

 

[Deleted member 7575]

Originally posted by Orochian@Apr 22nd, 2004 - 3:52 pm
I do not "dislike" him; but I'm don't find his work particularly impressive either.

But my impression of his work has no relation to my comment - my statement is strictly targeted at the blatantly wrong belief that "fashion is art".

Clothes that have no regard to the human body and their place in the wearer's life are as absurd as a chair created to be looked at, instead of sat upon, or a house to fill up a block, instead of being inhabited.

If a designer has such a lack of regard to the functional aspects of fashion, he/she should probably divert his/her attention to a true art form with no functional requirements, like sculpture.

I agree with you to a certain extent. I think with architecture, fashion, industrial design, etc should serve a functional need and purpose. However I think it completely possible to make a building, a garment, or even a chair to do more than just serve a function. I think this is where artistry and expression comes in. I think this is where design can contain art yet not exactly become art. The different elements of how art and design respond and influence people, culture, and society are blurred. While a building by Corbusier or a teapot by Michael Graves serve a function, there is an element of it's design that expresses an ideal, a thought, an element that causes the user to respond on a different level. To me that is art.


I would not say fashion is art. I would say fashion contains art.

 

[Deleted member 7575]

Originally posted by Orochian@Apr 22nd, 2004 - 3:25 pm

Gosh when will these uninformed people finally realize that fashion is not ART, it's DESIGN? And that doesn't mean fashion shouldn't be innovative, for design is the very essence of innovation. But being different for the sake of being different, like 99% of Galliano's work, certainly is no innovation - it's futile deviation. Genuine innovation requires something much more precise, studied, and calculated.

I would have to argue you on this. Have you ever really studied some of Galliano's garments? The technical applications on some of his dresses are insane. I don't think galliano throws his pieces together. He plans them out carefully down to the last detail. I would not say Galliano is innovative in the sense that he is bringing something completely new to the table. I think he is innovative in the way that he assesses the status quo and readdresses it for the mainstream. He challenges conventions of size, volume, porportion, color, texture, ethnocentricism, and culture. He looks at unfashion and integrates it into the mainstream. He does this all with somewhat constant success. That I would say takes calculation. research, and precision.

 

[stylegurrl]

Honestly, I don't like any of the designers listed here and I could add a few more to the list. Too many designers today are hyped for whatever reason and are not really deserving of the attention. They don't design wearable clothes or they keep repeating the same ideas over and over.

I hope that there will be a new group of designers that will come along and actually make things that are good for more than sitting in a museum.

 

[Holland_MULTIMEDIA*]

This topic is all about the struggle of FORM vs FUNCTION.

WHAT YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER IS THAT IF YOU CANT WEAR SOMETHING THEN ITS POINTLESS TO MAKE IT, AND IF YOU CANT WEAR IT THEN YOUR JUST A BAD DESIGNER. And you cant argue because its true! Let me explain..........

Anybody can make a building out of soda cans. But would you live in it? NO! You wouldnt even think twice,no matter how "trendy" people thought you were. Also, anybody can make a car out of paper mache.......but could you drive it? No!!!!!!!So dont even try to argue about it!

Most designers today compete for who is the most controversial. How else could you explain Gallianos designs? I challenge anybody to name a place where you could actually where a dress from his couture line! Dont even try cause you cant. And if you can then your probally crazy and the type of person to actually pay thos high prices!
A TRUE DESIGNER WOULD MERGE THEIR "BRAND IMAGE" INTO MODERN LIVING INSTEAD OF VICE VERSA!

 

[Holland_MULTIMEDIA*]

Damn, I wish there was an option to choose all the designers listed!