TheSoCalledPrep
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Go out and buy the clothes to kick this vicious circle in reverse.
From Radical To Mainstream
- Thread starter Scott
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Did I mention anything specifically regarding a certain class??
People who shop on a certain basis or ones who purchase that 'investment' piece still tend to spend on what's hot and easy to grab without even realizing its quality. I'm not saying that shopping at these places are bad(I like some things from H&M myself)its just that people are ignorant to the fact that they believe they get their money's worth by shopping in these places. And not just high street shops...even alot of high-end designer labels are hideously unworthy.
And if you want to talk of classes,I know alot of people who ARE NOT rich or have disposable incomes,as you say, that would much prefer saving their money for something that will ultimately last them a lifetime that treading on down to the local Gap for bulk clothing that won't last them two years.
I think eveyone here has valid and even more than valid points and they end up making the state of fashion what it is. The majority of people need clothing, they just do not need the creative, fashion clothing everyone is talking about here. I guess America is a prime example, where the middle class and poor could care less about anything they do not understand or need. They do not need CDG, Yohji, Gaultier. They need and want, Levi , Gap, Walmart, K-mart, Sears ect.Their lives do not revolve around such thing as high or creative fashion. Yes prices are one thing but they will spend money on sneakers , Tims , Nine west or Steve Madden.
They want a new low rise, sandblasted , flare jean, they get it from Walmart or 34th street, or Chinatown, or Harlem, or the local mall down the way from the trailor park, PJ's, hood, barrio or whatever. That is where the majority go. The labels that they aspire to are Ralph, Tommy, Fubu, Nautica, Nike, Puma, Juicy C, J.Lo,
Addidas ect. This is because Poplar entertainers, Britney, P.Diddy, J. Lo, Christina, Missy E, are making some labels popular or have a look that can be emulated. Everyone is thinking the same, sh*t Gothes of today look
the same as the Gothes that were around when I was a teen. preps are still Preps, and every body is hip-hop. And they will spend what little money they have on some Bling Bling in a heartbeat. and it is just really funny to see poor to low middle class teens and adults, dressed the same as upper middle class teens and adults., you see this when you ride the Subway anywhere. People that care about great quality & creativity are a minority. I do not have many people breaking down my door for a Bespoke suit from me and i am prctically giving them away at $1100-$1500 a piece ( Hand tailored, custom fit and designed for the client). Young Professinals all go look the same, shop at the same places, where same hairstyles, go to same bars and restaurants. There is a hive collective and the big companies understand that, and they want to make money. American fashion is not really fashion, it is based on sportswear which functional and practical.
that is how the American garment industry was founded and the formula still works today, however what is added to the mix is the hype. From the big name designer of the moment to the buyers asking a staff designer for company X, what is the style that you are selling most. The companies I worked for would not even entertain the notion of original design, until they saw it made from another company. I would say, "yeah that is the same thing I showed you six months ago and you hated it". Their response is usually " you were too early". Simply mindless and only care about the bottom line, money. The public is Hyped to death and are like zombies. It really is sad. OK enough of my ranting.
I hope I made some sense here, may have lost my line of thought.
They want a new low rise, sandblasted , flare jean, they get it from Walmart or 34th street, or Chinatown, or Harlem, or the local mall down the way from the trailor park, PJ's, hood, barrio or whatever. That is where the majority go. The labels that they aspire to are Ralph, Tommy, Fubu, Nautica, Nike, Puma, Juicy C, J.Lo,
Addidas ect. This is because Poplar entertainers, Britney, P.Diddy, J. Lo, Christina, Missy E, are making some labels popular or have a look that can be emulated. Everyone is thinking the same, sh*t Gothes of today look
the same as the Gothes that were around when I was a teen. preps are still Preps, and every body is hip-hop. And they will spend what little money they have on some Bling Bling in a heartbeat. and it is just really funny to see poor to low middle class teens and adults, dressed the same as upper middle class teens and adults., you see this when you ride the Subway anywhere. People that care about great quality & creativity are a minority. I do not have many people breaking down my door for a Bespoke suit from me and i am prctically giving them away at $1100-$1500 a piece ( Hand tailored, custom fit and designed for the client). Young Professinals all go look the same, shop at the same places, where same hairstyles, go to same bars and restaurants. There is a hive collective and the big companies understand that, and they want to make money. American fashion is not really fashion, it is based on sportswear which functional and practical.
that is how the American garment industry was founded and the formula still works today, however what is added to the mix is the hype. From the big name designer of the moment to the buyers asking a staff designer for company X, what is the style that you are selling most. The companies I worked for would not even entertain the notion of original design, until they saw it made from another company. I would say, "yeah that is the same thing I showed you six months ago and you hated it". Their response is usually " you were too early". Simply mindless and only care about the bottom line, money. The public is Hyped to death and are like zombies. It really is sad. OK enough of my ranting.
I hope I made some sense here, may have lost my line of thought.
well said clay, of course you are right..there is only a minority that cares about design and quality,
and this minority is largely hooked on
status adding fashion labels. 
still, there are still few -very few- people that just care for
quality, design and *uniqueness -instead of uniformity.
Those are your clients and if we take resent industry trends seriously,
it seems that the 'artistic *uniqueness' margin is due for serious growth.
Don't give up just concentrate, even more.
Bespoke will soon be on the demand,
make sure people know where to find you
pinkmonkey
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Well, I'm working class, and I'd say in London, the working classes are actually more likely to spend money on expensive clothes than the middle or upper classes. They can't afford the sports car, or the swanky apartment, so they go for the luxury item they can afford, which is the clothes.
Unfortunately, not usually the avante garde clothing, though. its more about brands and labels.
As Clay says, most people in the world are not interested in fashion in the slightest. They have different priorities. I remember when I worked for Shelllys, I took my boss to New York on a research trip. He went crazy. 'No one is wearing fashion!' Why are they all wearing sportswear, why no fashion?' The Uk is heading in this direction too. Perhaps those SciFi films where everyone wears identical jumpsuits had a point. Perhaps they are more accurrate than we thought!
Fashion is kind of a specialist interest now, you are either into it or you are not. You can try and eductate the general public all you want about leftfield designers, truth is, most people do not care about craftsmanship and don't want to stand out from the crowd, they just want a 'bodycovering' that lasts a reasonable length of time. I think we have to accept it is always going to be a niche market.
Unfortunately, not usually the avante garde clothing, though. its more about brands and labels.
As Clay says, most people in the world are not interested in fashion in the slightest. They have different priorities. I remember when I worked for Shelllys, I took my boss to New York on a research trip. He went crazy. 'No one is wearing fashion!' Why are they all wearing sportswear, why no fashion?' The Uk is heading in this direction too. Perhaps those SciFi films where everyone wears identical jumpsuits had a point. Perhaps they are more accurrate than we thought!
Fashion is kind of a specialist interest now, you are either into it or you are not. You can try and eductate the general public all you want about leftfield designers, truth is, most people do not care about craftsmanship and don't want to stand out from the crowd, they just want a 'bodycovering' that lasts a reasonable length of time. I think we have to accept it is always going to be a niche market.
Did I mention anything specifically regarding a certain class??
People who shop on a certain basis or ones who purchase that 'investment' piece still tend to spend on what's hot and easy to grab without even realizing its quality. I'm not saying that shopping at these places are bad(I like some things from H&M myself)its just that people are ignorant to the fact that they believe they get their money's worth by shopping in these places. And not just high street shops...even alot of high-end designer labels are hideously unworthy.
And if you want to talk of classes,I know alot of people who ARE NOT rich or have disposable incomes,as you say, that would much prefer saving their money for something that will ultimately last them a lifetime that treading on down to the local Gap for bulk clothing that won't last them two years. [/b][/quote]
I still don't think you get it. You still need to set some parameters as to what you consider to be "not rich". Because not rich by TFS standards is pretty damn rich by my standards. Middle class in North America is typically defined as having a family income of $50,000 a year before taxes. Upper-middle class is usually $80,000 a year. And that is for an entire family... not just individual income. The fact that you assume people are buying "bulk clothing" from the gap is generalizing. There were some people I went to school with who did that but I certainly don't do that and none of my friends who are from upper-middle class families do that either. I do have a bunch of clothes from cheap stores but most of it is stuff I've had for several years. I must really take care of my clothes well because I can make even some of the cheapest items last for well over 2 years.
And I also know of people with lower incomes who buy indie designer labels at small boutiques and such. Those people are up to their ears in debt. They still buy as much as any other person and when they get tired of their clothes they try to sell them on ebay. They also can't afford any hobbies other than clothes, which I think is pretty sad. And I do agree with you that even some of the designer stuff is crap quality. I've seen some designer stuff being sold with threads hanging out and everything.
pinkmonkey
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I still don't think you get it. You still need to set some parameters as to what you consider to be "not rich". Because not rich by TFS standards is pretty damn rich by my standards. Middle class in North America is typically defined as having a family income of $50,000 a year before taxes. Upper-middle class is usually $80,000 a year. And that is for an entire family... not just individual income. The fact that you assume people are buying "bulk clothing" from the gap is generalizing. There were some people I went to school with who did that but I certainly don't do that and none of my friends who are from upper-middle class families do that either. I do have a bunch of clothes from cheap stores but most of it is stuff I've had for several years. I must really take care of my clothes well because I can make even some of the cheapest items last for well over 2 years.
And I also know of people with lower incomes who buy indie designer labels at small boutiques and such. Those people are up to their ears in debt. They still buy as much as any other person and when they get tired of their clothes they try to sell them on ebay. They also can't afford any hobbies other than clothes, which I think is pretty sad. And I do agree with you that even some of the designer stuff is crap quality. I've seen some designer stuff being sold with threads hanging out and everything. [/b][/quote]
We do not define class by income here in the UK.
For instance a good bricklayer can earn more than $80,000 dollars here in the UK but he will still be labelled working class because of his trade.
Well we try not to use the word "class" here either. More like income bracket... or at least that's the politically correct way of saying it. But no matter how you define it, when you have less money in a money driven society you still feel of a lower class. 
softgrey
flaunt the imperfection
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the uk is funny with their class system...such an antiquated notion that they still hold onto...hahaha...so silly...
clay and lena...i agree with what you're saying...the market is unfortunately very small for avante garde ideas...but it has to be or else it wouldn't be avant garde anymore...it would then become mainstream...
avante garde...by definition ...needs to be different...and therefore can't me mass...
it's a built in conundrum...i do hope the market gets a bit bigger ...however ...i don't really think there is room for too many avante garde designers...only the most talented or well-financed will survive...the laws of nature and commerce dictate this...
survival of the fittest...and best -selling ...
clay and lena...i agree with what you're saying...the market is unfortunately very small for avante garde ideas...but it has to be or else it wouldn't be avant garde anymore...it would then become mainstream...
avante garde...by definition ...needs to be different...and therefore can't me mass...
it's a built in conundrum...i do hope the market gets a bit bigger ...however ...i don't really think there is room for too many avante garde designers...only the most talented or well-financed will survive...the laws of nature and commerce dictate this...
survival of the fittest...and best -selling ...
softgrey
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I don't think its necessarily ignorance, Scott. I love fashion and have a pretty good understanding of it as I work in the trade but I have other priorities when it comes to spending my money.
Here in the UK its more fashionable to spend money on your home isn't it?
I also remember an article in The Evening Standard where lifestyle researchers discovered that the young and affluent were making a conscious decision to spend their money on 'life experiences' such as adventure holidays, courses, motorcycles etc, instead of fashion.
Me? I buy a bit of designer, mainly acessories, but more often than not I shop in charity shops and H & M.
Have to say I find some prices of designer goods obscene. Ok, I can accept why couture cost as much as it does, but for instance theres a silk skirt with a frayed hem in this months Elle for £1500
They are literally having a laugh. [/b][/quote]well said...i've been saying that for ages...good to know i'm not alone here...
now i'm depressed.
it will be probably too hard for me to be a designer, but i guess i can design for others.
honestly, there arent a whole lot of designers here who rake in decent money, it's only a handful.
it's true, most people don't care about fashion seriously, they only care about looking good and clothes that make you look good. it's sad, i wish more people cared about creativity and style. i always think that others will agree that what you wear says a lot about yourself and there are finer points that can be appreciated, but thank god for tfs!
it will be probably too hard for me to be a designer, but i guess i can design for others.
honestly, there arent a whole lot of designers here who rake in decent money, it's only a handful.
it's true, most people don't care about fashion seriously, they only care about looking good and clothes that make you look good. it's sad, i wish more people cared about creativity and style. i always think that others will agree that what you wear says a lot about yourself and there are finer points that can be appreciated, but thank god for tfs!
Banana,give me a break with the statistics please. You're taking everything I say out of context.
And what is rich by TFS standards? Is there some sort of code to having less or more money than others?
Softgrey,its not so much that I want indies to be mainstream just that these corporations are dominating the field these days;now rearing its ugly head onto even the indepenent and creative. Just as I said about Viktor & Rolf...it was enough for them to change their aesthetic(if they even have much of one these days)and their design approach. So you know when two of the most iconoclastic designers change to become a 'global brand', something's going on.
And what is rich by TFS standards? Is there some sort of code to having less or more money than others?
Softgrey,its not so much that I want indies to be mainstream just that these corporations are dominating the field these days;now rearing its ugly head onto even the indepenent and creative. Just as I said about Viktor & Rolf...it was enough for them to change their aesthetic(if they even have much of one these days)and their design approach. So you know when two of the most iconoclastic designers change to become a 'global brand', something's going on.
I still don't think you get it. You still need to set some parameters as to what you consider to be "not rich". Because not rich by TFS standards is pretty damn rich by my standards. Middle class in North America is typically defined as having a family income of $50,000 a year before taxes. Upper-middle class is usually $80,000 a year. And that is for an entire family... not just individual income. The fact that you assume people are buying "bulk clothing" from the gap is generalizing. There were some people I went to school with who did that but I certainly don't do that and none of my friends who are from upper-middle class families do that either. I do have a bunch of clothes from cheap stores but most of it is stuff I've had for several years. I must really take care of my clothes well because I can make even some of the cheapest items last for well over 2 years.
And I also know of people with lower incomes who buy indie designer labels at small boutiques and such. Those people are up to their ears in debt. They still buy as much as any other person and when they get tired of their clothes they try to sell them on ebay. They also can't afford any hobbies other than clothes, which I think is pretty sad. And I do agree with you that even some of the designer stuff is crap quality. I've seen some designer stuff being sold with threads hanging out and everything. [/b][/quote]
excuse me? you are making some extream judgements abotu people here, people you don't know and have no idea about.
I agree with scott* I don't whant indies to be main stream but i whant to stop global corperations and I whant new ideas to be recognized and nurtered not hiden.
PrinceOfCats
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Everywhere has a class-system - we just admit that ours' exists and set about solving the problem from there...In my experience the class system holds true in a lot of cases: the aristocrats have glass-cut accents, the middle class have stainless-steel fish-knives and working-class families call the living-room the 'longue' and the sofa the 'settee'...
As the aristocrats go in the UK they're often very plainly dressed. I only ever meet young toffs but they dress like ordinary people with lots of cash. So H&M basics paired with a £300 pair of Oakley sunglasses etc...as they get older subsitute H&M with M&S...I don't see many of them as being bastions of couture OR avant-garde.
Avant-garde fashion would get a lot more sympathy from me if so much of it wasn't such drippy, wet, pretentious tosh...well made classic pieces can make up the staple of any wardrobe, IMO...
sad but true
[/b][/quote]avant garde IS becoming mainstream,
and personally i can't see he problem in this.
people are more creative, regarless if they are willing-or able-
to BUY, mix & play with (x)avant-garde designers pieces in their wardrobes.
sad to say, free-standing designers are getting out of work...
but this is not really the faut of the consumer,
its basically a fault of those designers that tried to play the game
on mass market rules.. and of course, the lost.
i wouldnt say its too hard for indie designers at this point in time.
as a matter of fact, creative indie designers never had it easier
Still,I long the day when people aren't so easily persuaded by marketeering schemes. People don't think for themselves anymore when it comes to style....real style and real design. That's what I'm trying to say as far as ignorance is concerned.
softgrey
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when did they?...
the creative groups have always been the minority...and the masses always followed...i do think ...like lena...that it's actually better now than it ever has been...but i wouldn't go so far to say that avante garde is mainstream...more like a current trend...which i assume will fade as soon as the next one comes along...
i believe we will always be the minority...and i think i'm ok with that...after all...i don't want to look like everyone else...and i don't want them looking like me...so there you have it...
i'm a minority...
and prince...your assumption that we follow a class system in the US is incorrect...i have many british friends who live here now because they wanted to escape their working class background which would have been impossible there and is irrelevant here...
look at bill clinton...he's not from any fabulous family...rather the reverse...and yet he was elected president...we have prejudices...but not based on class...
what we have...unfortunately...is a problem with racism...
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