In Fashion, Who Really Gets Ahead? - NYTimes article

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source: nytimes.com

December 8, 2005
In Fashion, Who Really Gets Ahead?

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The cast of the television series "Project Runway" presents a picture of diversity. But one fashion designer said that women in the industry face numerous obstacles.

By ERIC WILSON

AT a cocktail party at Chelsea Piers on Sunday night, an annual Toys for Tots charity drive that draws a crowd of mostly gay men, the designer Peter Som wryly observed that there were so many designers, retail executives and publicists present that if the pier collapsed, "there would be no fashion industry tomorrow."


Two months earlier, Tara Subkoff, the agent provocateur behind the label Imitation of Christ, had remarked during a public forum, with a great deal of irritation, that fashion "is a gay man's profession."


Ms. Subkoff was annoyed; Mr. Som was amused.


The difference between their attitudes toward the gay male dominance of the fashion industry, a peculiar and widely acknowledged circumstance, illustrates a growing tension between those who feel they are discriminated against and those who feel somewhat favored by a perception, largely unexamined, that men are better designers than women, and gay men are the best designers of all.


Ms. Subkoff's remarks, made during a panel discussion of "Generation X Fashion" at the New Yorker Festival in late September, landed like an incendiary device in the fashion world - she also accused Anna Wintour, the editor of Vogue, of supporting only "young, gay men." A debate has continued ever since on Seventh Avenue over who is most likely to succeed in fashion and also on whether women, who make up most of the customers for this industry, face institutional barriers that limit their advancement on the creative side.


Many female designers perceive that their male counterparts have won more industry honors and are featured more prominently in magazines. On television, they note, advice on style and design is almost invariably sought from a vibrantly gay man - witness "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy," the new "Isaac" talk show with Isaac Mizrahi on the Style channel and "Project Runway" on Bravo, which began its second season on Wednesday night. Its cast of 16 includes 8 male contestants, 7 of them gay, a spokesman for Bravo said.


"A 30-year-old woman who is not very glamorous, but approaching fashion from a different point of view, maybe would not get the same attention as a young, cute and probably gay man," said Liz Collins, a knitwear designer who has earned several industry accolades but little commercial success. Ms. Collins, who teaches a textiles course at the Rhode Island School of Design while continuing her signature collection, said she did not believe the industry favors gay men over women, citing the obvious examples of women who have had great success - Coco Chanel, Donna Karan and arguably the most influential designer of modern times, Miuccia Prada. But, Ms. Collins said, she has her own suspicions that she was once denied financing from a state program for small businesses because of her sex.


"There are some really deep-seated tensions and resentment that has existed for a long time about gender in fashion and who gets things," Ms. Collins said. "A lot of those things are not necessarily real, or true, and they may be just suspicions. But you can look at certain examples of people who have had a faster rise to stardom, and the percentage of gay men is higher."


There is no way to accurately measure the success rate of designers based on sex or sexual orientation, or, somewhat speciously, to examine if men are more talented at design than women. As Valerie Steele, the chief curator of the Museum of the Fashion Institute of Technology, said: "There is no gay gene for creativity."


But circumstantial evidence is making some designers wonder about the disparities. Of the young American designers most embraced by retailers and celebrated in the fashion press in recent years, the roll call is almost exclusively male: Zac Posen, Marc Jacobs, Narciso Rodriguez and Mr. Som as well as Jack McCollough and Lazaro Hernandez of Proenza Schouler. Their female contemporaries have had a harder time breaking through, among them Behnaz Sarafpour, Alice Roi and Ms. Subkoff.


"Gay men stick together like a band of brothers," Ms. Subkoff said in an interview. "It's more common for a man to bring up a younger assistant" who is male "and be proud of that," she added, "whereas a woman would be threatened" to promote another woman.


The Council of Fashion Designers of America, a trade group that vets those who apply for membership, is made up of 121 women and 156 men. Since 1986 its annual Perry Ellis awards for young talent have been given to 8 women and 29 men (20 of them openly gay).


"Who's Who in Fashion," a directory published by Fairchild Publications, is split 60-40 in favor of men, and "The Encyclopedia of Clothing and Fashion," published last year by Charles Scribner's Sons, included entries on 36 female and 69 male designers. No doubt such imbalances reflect in part the fact that fashion, like all professions, has historically been dominated by men because women rarely had careers outside the home until contemporary times.


Some of the reasons women don't have greater visibility today, insiders say, come down to the same work-life issues affecting women's progress in fields like law and banking. "Women still prioritize getting married and having babies," said Norma Kamali, one of the most influential female designers of the past century. "There are fewer women willing to give up the time that is required for this kind of career. It's about passion, about being so focused that nothing could distract you."


There are also plentiful examples of female designers who have balanced families and work, including Ms. Karan, Cynthia Rowley and Cynthia Steffe. Dana Buchman built a business with an estimated $150 million in annual sales over 19 years with the philosophy that she shares the lifestyle of a working mother and career woman with her customers. Yet, Ms. Buchman's success has been little reflected in the news media compared with some designers who have barely started selling clothes.


"I don't show up in the fashion press a lot," she said. "If you look at who is touted in the fashion press, it is overwhelmingly young gay men."


Ms. Wintour declined to comment on Ms. Subkoff's accusation that she favors gay men among designers prominently featured in Vogue. But other designers came to her defense, noting the November and December issues show dresses by Vera Wang on the cover. There is little dispute that the designs of John Galliano, Mr. Jacobs, Mr. Rodriguez, Olivier Theyskens and Karl Lagerfeld, all prominently featured on Vogue covers this year, merit the spotlight.


In some quarters, the perception exists that fashion's main consumers, women, are more comfortable taking advice about how they should look from a man. "Men are often better designers for women than other women," said Tom Ford, the former creative director of Gucci and Yves Saint Laurent, who more than anyone in the past decade built a brand on his own persona, that of a man whose sensual appeal is to both men and women. Whereas Bill Blass, Valentino and Oscar de la Renta founded their empires on the strength of a nonthreatening, nonsexual charisma, Mr. Ford aggressively promoted his sexually charged designs. "Of course there are many more gay male designers," Mr. Ford said. "I think we are more objective. We don't come with the baggage of hating certain parts of our bodies."


Some designers embrace an extreme version of this position. Michael Vollbracht, the current designer of Bill Blass, said he believes that gay men are demonstrably superior at design, their aesthetic formed by a perception of a woman as an idealized fantasy. "I come from a time when gay men dressed women," Mr. Vollbracht said. "We didn't bed them. Or at least I didn't. I am someone who is really pro-homosexual. I am an elitist. I am better than straight people. Women are confused about who they want to be. I believe that male designers have the fantasy level that women do not."


When women design for other women, Mr. Ford said, they proceed from a standpoint of practicality - not fantasy. "Sometimes women are trapped by their own views of themselves, but some have built careers around that," he said. "Donna Karan was obsessed with her hips and used her own idiosyncrasies to define her brand."


Ms. Buchman sees little value in such arguments. If men are more objective, she countered, then women are empathetic, which can be useful in understanding the consumer. "I wear my own clothes," she said. "I have lived the life of my customer."


"This disparity is tied in with a lot of areas, not just fashion, where women have achieved less in the eyes of the world," Ms. Buchman said. "It is puzzling and troubling to me as a 1970's feminist but who knows, maybe this generation will be the one to change it all."


That some designers would consider there to be a difference in ability between the sexes echoes the results of a survey issued in October by Catalyst, a nonprofit research firm that studies women in the workplace. The report said senior managers in many industries automatically used gender stereotypes, for example that men are more ambitious or better problem solvers, when judging qualifications for leadership roles.


"We can't explain the gender gap away by differences in qualifications, ambitions or success strategies," said Jeanine Prime, the author of the study. "A lot of it still has to do with the perception that women don't have the right leadership stuff. There are a lot of barriers that men just don't face." Catalyst's survey of women in senior management positions showed that those women have the same ambitions as men.


The large number of visible gay men in fashion, say many in the industry, traces to the fact that Seventh Avenue has seemed a less homophobic career choice than, say, law enforcement or Wall Street. And the prominence of gay men enjoying fame and prosperity draws others into the field.


Paradoxically, at the grass roots many more women seek entry to the industry than men. Fewer than 7 percent of students in the fashion department at the Parsons the New School for Design in New York are men, said Timothy Gunn, the department chairman. That figure that has been declining for a decade. At the Fashion Institute of Technology, the city's other leading fashion college, the student body is 85 percent women.


Even though women are entering the industry at the bottom, they are not rising proportionally to the top. "It's startling to think about it," said Mary Gehlhar, the fashion director of Gen Art, a nonprofit organization that showcases new designers and artists. In her database of designers there are far more women than men with their own labels, but fewer cases of measurable success. "You don't necessarily see that at all in the press," she said. "With more publicity and awards, like the Vogue Fashion Fund, the finalists for a lot of those things do tend to be often male."


Fashion, unlike finance or politics, has always included some women at the top. But their visibility has not increased incrementally over the decades like other professions. In the 1920's and 30's, there were many female designers - Alix Grès, Elsa Schiaparelli and Chanel - but after World War II, the big names were male - Bill Blass, Yves Saint Laurent and Pierre Cardin. Ms. Steele of F.I.T. said the change could be attributed to the evolving role of women in society, from one of strength and independence before the war to the postwar ideal of a feminine mystique.


Likewise, the impression that gay men are more likely to succeed in fashion today, she said, is a reflection of contemporary attitudes and stereotypes.


"There are all of these unexamined and frankly invalid ideas that still seem to be bandied about," Ms. Steele said. "I think there are more likely cultural and sociopolitical explanations. But the perception that all good designers are men and that all male designers are gay, which Rudi Gernreich said 30 years ago, all gets down to the totally unprovable to the grossly homophobic."
 
yeah....ok...
now tell me something i didn't know...

like how to CHANGE it...
 
Good evening one and all,
I was not planning on being on TSF tonight, as since of late I have been juggling a number of projects that have made me extremely busy.
However, on my way home this evening I happened to have read a copy of the article in today's NEW YORK TIMES style section, that pertains to this thread. It was an interesting article and I do believe that this is an aspect of fashion that should be viewed and assesed in greater detail. Not only should it be seriously scrutinized but steps should be taken by those who care, to alleviate or at least minimize some of these evil biases that have plagued this industry.
of late I have been having mixed feeling about this Industry, as to what my future will be in relation to fashion as a career, I dont know. While I do know that I have been blessed with an immense talent, that in terms of creativity and technical accomplishment puts me head and shoulders above many of my peers, I am not sure thast I am willing to sell my soul for this industry. It is true, undeniably, that homosexual white males do get ahead way better than others in this industry, but the reality is that they are in absolutely no way more talented or gifted than any other human being when it comes to design. as to what are the reason(s) for this there is no simple answer. I would'nt even bother to even think about the possible reasons why.
On another note, I am extremely offended by the comments of that Idiotic assclown that designs for the late great BIll Blass' company. Mr. blass was a classy gentleman and it is a shame that a person of such low mentality and thought is at the helm of a company founded by this decent man

what makes him think that he is superior to straight people, i dont see his designs being in any way superior to that of any successful straight designer,
Does his work have the elegance and beauty of say Mr. Oscar de la Renta?
Is it in anyway comparable to the singular vision and uncompromising endurance of Mr. Ralph Lauren.
While Mr. Calvin Klein has walked both sides of the street his work also has a creative cool that american pro homosexual idiot does not possess nor can even aspire to
Is he saying that his work is better than that of the artistic genius of Mr.Lacroix?
Or even the poetry of the great Emmanuel Ungaro
As far as i know, Gabrielle Chanel, Mme. Gres, Rei, Ann of Antwerp, Ms. Prada and more i could mention are all groundbreaking and influential designers in thier own right and the are all women who led heterosexual lives as far as i know. History will show, as contemporary times now does, that his work or even that of his many homosexual compatriots if by far inferior to the creative contributions made by these straight female designers. as a matter of fact had it not been fore a straight woman, Coco Chanel, the greatness that has been achieved by Karl Lagerfeld (in my estimation, the most prolific designer ever) would have never been possible

I am offended by his comments, I would go as far as to "throw down the gaunlet" to this fool, Challenge Me! if you are so great, prove it! Lets have a showdown, a "settlement of the argument" per se,
give him fabric, let him choose an idea or inspiration, let him have no help that he have to rely on his own " SUPERIORITY" from idea to execution, and see if he can design and produce a better collection than I can!
Had it not been for the people whom he considers inferior idiots like him would never have a career.
 
zamb said:
It is true, undeniably, that homosexual white males do get ahead way better than others in this industry, but the reality is that they are in absolutely no way more talented or gifted than any other human being when it comes to design.

perhaps the entire point, no? this is one of those issues that's frivolous and serious at the same time. i take mr. barret's^ side here. talent, imo is not dependant on the person's sexuality.

that's..well it's a duh! kind of thing. what does trouble me, is the stereotype of the queeny gay male in fashion. i like men, and i detest this kind of behaviour because it's all in your head..:innocent:
 
"It is true, undeniably, that homosexual white males do get ahead way better than others in this industry, but the reality is that they are in absolutely no way more talented or gifted than any other human being when it comes to design."

Why not?

Why is it implausible that creative talent has a higher degree of incidence in the gay white male population? Just as a talent for sprint athletics has a higher degree of incidence on the black male population at large?

There could be perfectly plausible sociological explanations. The intolerance - whether overt or implicit - exhibited towards their orientation could be the fount of their creativity. For being repressed in ways no straight men can fathom, they then channel their repressed energies to endeavours in the creative fields, in the arts, in fashion. In areas where their left-field sensibilities do not incur the social costs they would have otherwise incurred elsewhere (e.g., in the military).

They therefore have higher incentives to succeed in these fields than perhaps straight people do. Hence the higher incidence of creative talent among gay people. To assume, glibly, that there could be no innate differences between races, or sexes, is to be utterly naive with regards to species of human variety.
 
gay women are oppressed too...right?...
so would then the argument follow that a gay woman would be the BEST designer of them all???...
i can only name one...and she's now retired...

it's too ridiculous...:lol:...

**you all need to see that movie 'seamless'...
the proenza boys are far from 'oppressed'...
if anything...they are living in the lap of luxury...
champagne breakfasts and the like...
living in a HUGE loft...

sorry...but that theory simply doesn't hold water...:flower:...

i agree zam...
that guy is an IDIOT...!!!..
and he's an UNTALENTED idiot to boot!!....
:rolleyes:...

**the reason is more to do with women's insecurities and the need to be 'stroked' and made to feel beautiful by a man....
even if that man is gay...
sad and pathetic ...but true...
many of these wealthy women who are the customers of these designers are in loveless marriages where the husband has long since strayed...
plus ...they often feel competetive with other women ...

this is not a mystery that needs to be solved...
everyone in the industry is well aware of the situation and the reasons behind it...
 
Here's my 2 cents. Creativity is probably 20% genetic and 80% culture. Anyone with an innate creativity and who is immersed in creative culture will probably be ahead in design and creative thinking. A large proportion of gay males participate passionately in creative culture, and it isn't surprising that a large majority of them are also obsessed with fashion, clubbing, music, etc. it's their lifestyle of choice. A woman or straight man who does that will probably be just as innovative, but inevitably, over a certain age, most will opt for the stable lifestyle of starting families and raising kids over the risque lifestyle of pertpetual partying.

That said, I'm quite sure there is also substantial institutional discrimination, older gay men favouring younger gay men, etc., in the entire fashion industry, design, media, retail, etc. The gay fashion population is pretty much entrenched, and these two factors I mentioned naturally favour gay men in the design field, especially fashion. It'd be sad if talented women or straight men are shut out.

Me, I don't care. I buy clothes that strike me, regardless of the sex or sexual orientation of the designer. I have in my closet CdG, AFV (half female and half straight,:smile:), Veronique Branquinho, Ann D, Vivienne Westwood, and I think only the last is a dedicated scenester. Frankly, Donna Karan, Behnaz Serapour, Vera Wang, Cynthia Rowley, etc. all horrify me with their ugliness.:ninja:
 
I don't think it is as much creativity as it is insight that allows one to be a good designer.

gay men tend to have a lot of this insight, but women do too. I think gay men in general are more appreciative of this insight and pursue it with more vigor than the average person.
 
It certainly is ironic that the current designer of Bill Blass, possibly the most boring line on the planet, is taking that particular stand. I can only ask, if that's the case--honey, what happened to you??? ^_^

As for the statement that there is no gay creative gene ... I'm not sure we know that yet. We've just mapped the genome, and I'm certain there's a very great deal we don't understand yet on both counts.

What Tom says is valid to a point ... but quite frankly the idealization doesn't do it for me, and there's nothing so wonderful as finding a line designed by someone who apparently has your same figure flaw :D

PS Zazie, welcome back :mrgreen:
 
what kind of insight mutterlein?...
 
softgrey said:
what kind of insight mutterlein?...

I think it is insight on the senstivities and respects needed in order to be creative. For example, the insight of seeing a garment as something much more than an object used solely to cover your body, or even something pretty. To be able to see it as something worth your time, able to communicate through, and be intelligent with it. There is the same insight with litetature and art. I wouldn't call it talent as I think it is something that can be learned, it can be obtained. The genetic argument that gay men are better than woman is absurd.

also keep in mind that while they are a lot of great gay male designers there are also a lot of horrible gay male designers.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
:lol:...i love that last bit...
d-squared LEAPS to mind...

:ninja:...

thx mutter...
 
softgrey said:
gay women are oppressed too...right?...
so would then the argument follow that a gay woman would be the BEST designer of them all???...
i can only name one...and she's now retired...

it's too ridiculous...:lol:...

**you all need to see that movie 'seamless'...
the proenza boys are far from 'oppressed'...
if anything...they are living in the lap of luxury...
champagne breakfasts and the like...
living in a HUGE loft...

sorry...but that theory simply doesn't hold water...:flower:...

You miss the point completely. We're not talking about 'oppression' in the sense of being poor. We're talking about the average gay man being repressed in a society that often frowns on a person of gay orientation. Growing up, worrying that your parents might disapprove of your homosexuality, debating whether to come out of the closet - all this is part of the emotional repression that is always in the background for them. Do they out themselves, or leave the option of a 'straight' life open, &c? These are going concerns articulated by gay men even today, in a relatively enlightened age.

Not 'oppression' in your sense, which is irrelevant.

Traditionally, gay women have been less ostracized in popular culture than gay men. This is reflected law, where until recently sodomy was a criminal offence, whereas lesbianism was not. There has been a far more blase attitude with regards to female homosexuality than male.

But quite apart from that, the gay woman incurs no additional social costs in the fields of endeavour already traditionally populated by women. Whereas the inverse - for men in traditionally male-dominated fields- is not true: they incur significantly higher social costs. Their incentive to succeed in an alternate field NOT dominated by straight males is therefore higher for gay men than for the gay women, who are already 'at home' and in their element, as it were, in the creative fields that women were already well-represented in.

Consequently the tension between traditional male expectations and the inclinations of the homosexual male is greater than whatever is experienced by gay women (vis-a-vis traditional female expectations). This is only logical. You find it ridiculous only because you made the precise mistake I said not to make: treating the gay woman as if her social situation were the same as the gay man's. It could not be more different.
 
point taken...

but i still don't think gay men are better at designing women's clothes than women are...

women have all kinds of pressures and prejudices to overcome in business and in their personal lives...

and one would think that fashion would be the one place where they could dominate...since they are the ones with the buying power...
and yet they are still discriminated against...
often by other women...
:ermm:...

it's not so easy being a girl either you know....
it truly is a 'man's world'...
even a gay man is better off than most women...
imo...

*personally...
as a woman...i would love to see some straight men designing...
i am just afraid it would look like gucci...
:lol:...
 
Demeulemeester, Vivienne Westwood - both straight, both unquestionably successful at what they do.
 
actually...
both seriously underground and lacking major financial backing...
:flower:...

phoebe philo and miuccia prada would be better examples...
no one said it doesn't happen...
it's just clearly dominated by gay men...
especially when it comes to 'funding'...
 
and now that i think about it....
look at how phoebe and miuccia got there...

miuccia simply inherited the family business...
and phoebe sailed in on the coattails of her 'famous' friend...a beatle offspring...

of course they are talented....
and have done impressive work...
but plenty of women simply don't get the opportunity...
 

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