Is Cheap Chic going to eat itself?

[Ollie]

My wardrobe definatly consists of a mix of cheap "trend items" which will fade from fashion as quickly as the appeared, and then the staple garments that are timeless. With the "trend" set I cant afford to spend much on something that is going to be so fleeting, but for those long lasting staples I always try to buy something that hasn't been made at a low cost, whether that means exploiting child labour or not.

The issue with "fair trade" is that it will never become dominant in the market unless consumers force it to. In my city I have seen an explosion in fair trade coffee, this is because people have become more aware of it and demand it as an option. But with clothes we have always had it as an option and there hasn't been the same levels of demand. I think cheap chic has its place in the market and it will be exceedingly difficult to remove this option and now what seems to be a mentality of shopping from the consumer mindset.

 

[Parker007]

I am not sure I understand you correctly, but if I do, than it is not about "feeling better about yourself," rather it is about being a compassionate human being and caring about other people and the global community

Sorry I went a bit overboard there I ain't a angry person its just that you get told a lot of things by different people about companies policies etc and in my eyes the Arcadia group is sooo soo big that it must be making there clothes in mass production ways. Its bringing in of small fair-trade chains (like Marks and Spencer who now sell t-shirts and socks with so called "fair-trade cotton" )gives it a better look overall image and it looks like a way to spin out good p.r. My parents are from hong Kong and china and rather poor backgrounds and a lot of thier friends and relatives do work at these sweat shops for places like gap etc. They don't mind it, its how they are making a living, I think the term "slave labour" is a bit extreme here.

Sorry im all over the place.

 

[tinuvielberen]

My parents are from hong Kong and china and rather poor backgrounds and a lot of thier friends and relatives do work at these sweat shops for places like gap etc. They don't mind it, its how they are making a living, I think the term "slave labour" is a bit extreme here.

I've had the same idea...

Conditions are terrible in the sweatshops; but it's quite possible conditions might be much worse if the person didn't have the job. Rural poverty can be profound.

 

[Parker007]

I've had the same idea...

Conditions are terrible in the sweatshops; but it's quite possible conditions might be much worse if the person didn't have the job. Rural poverty can be profound.

I know I reckon that tightening laws on sweat shop factories and such will open up a black market for people who need the money so that it is done secretly.

 

[mellowdrama]

Here's another pertinent link to an article in the Guardian online, by Andy Beckett:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/retail/story/0,,1719765,00.html

An excerpt:

Ethical and political considerations have yet to check this impulse significantly. Western consumers have known about the Victorian environmental practices, pay rates and working conditions of Asian manufacturing since at least the start of the decade. "Poor people [there] are subsidising the standard of living of consumers in the rich north," as Schor puts it. However, she continues,"The connection between labour conditions and price has not yet been made." Or it has been made by consumers, and then quietly put to the back of their minds. At Primark in Oxford, the shoppers all sounded genuinely concerned when I brought up the cheap labour issue, but they did not linger over the subject.
An even less pleasurable topic never came up at all: that there is a political as well as an economic world order that makes modern discount shopping possible. The overwhelming power of America, the lingering power of Europe and the other traditionally rich parts of the world, and recent economic history all play their part. Schor points out that the bargain boom began shortly after the Asian financial crisis of the late 1990s; in countries such as Indonesia and Thailand, there was suddenly an increased supply of people prepared to work for very low wages.
It is hard to read a newspaper without realising that this balance of power between east and west is altering. In this context, the big questions about how we live with our cheap possessions and whether we really like them and what we do when we've finished with them may ultimately be dwarfed by an even bigger issue. "If other countries come to dominate," Schor says crisply, "We may be the ones producing cheap T-shirts".

 

[horriblyjollyjin]

Hi All,
It turns out that the trend for cheap, fast fashion is causing an increase in worker exploitation and the use of child labor.

Do you think consumers are eventually going to turn their back on Cheap Chic, or do you think they just don't care about how things are made and who gets exploited?

How do you know that lower end clothes increase child labor? Where is the evidence, what is the basis for your statement?

How is a worker in a low-wage country being exploited?
The Chinese have increased their average salary by 600% in the last 20 years. The workers in Nike's factories in Vietnam make 8 times the average salary in Vietnam. Watch "Globalisation is Good" by Johan Norberg, you can get it online.

Globalisation IS industrialisation. Do you oppose industrialiastion?
It is the ONLY way for poor countries to improve their standard of living. A farmer in a country can never save up enough to let their kids get a higher education. In a country like Vietnam everyone used to grow enough to support their own family, what little excess they could come up with had almost no value at all, because everyone else had already grown this crop themselves for their own family.
Industrialisation gives money, allows for a higher education which in turn makes for a higher income -> higher standards of living.

How can you oppose this? I suspect that you are a socialist.

 

[horriblyjollyjin]

It's got to the point where prices have gone about as low as they can go, and labour costs are rising, so a lot of factories can't find enough people to make the clothes at that price. Then the bosses get to the point where they're asking themselves "Do I lose the business or do I just start taking on a bit of child labour?"

What's wrong with this? Higher labour costs = workers get payed more, boohoo, that's soooo bad! Or is it?
If labour costs rise it doesn't mean that one, two or a handful of companies have to pay higher wages, it means that every company on that market has to, thus it does not hurt competition between these actors. The end result is that us westerners have to pay a higher price, ahh yes, that's why you dont like this.

At the same time as the wages rise the working conditions do too because the workers can now actually have a say!
What you are doing is questioning the market economy, on the basis of nothing.

 

[horriblyjollyjin]

seems you cant edit your posts here..

No economy is a zero sum game. In a free economy, both sides profit from every transaction. Maybe in a short perspective, maybe in a long perspective, but the bottom line is that no deal that is not profitable is ever made in a free market.

Just because a company increases profits by outsourcing it doesn't mean that the workers lose. Why have the workers taken those jobs? Because they pay more than others. Would you rather have the vietnamese work for national companies for lower wages? The Vietnamese economy would surely suffer if all international corporations shut their factories within the county.

 

[timwin]

I've had the same idea...

Conditions are terrible in the sweatshops; but it's quite possible conditions might be much worse if the person didn't have the job. Rural poverty can be profound.

It's a shame the moderators took down the link I put up at the very start of this thread. It led to an interview with a professor at the City University of Hong Kong who had been researching working conditions in Chinese clothes factories. What he was saying is that in China, it's actually getting harder and harder to find people to work for such little pay, and because of this, factories are being forced to resort to child labour.

Salary expectations in China have risen. Meanwhile, the brands are putting pressure on their Chinese suppliers to deliver goods faster, with shorter production runs and higher standards of social compliance. But at the same time, they want the goods to be the same price or cheaper. And because of this, the work conditions are actually getting worse, and factories are asking themselves if they can really afford to make the dirt cheap stuff that their customers are pushing them for.

 

[Kizzume]

Price and quality often do not go hand in hand, and a higher price does not mean better ethics, in fact, for the companies that charge a lot and still have unethical business practices, they're even LESS ethical because they charge a lot for something that doesn't cost them jack.

If there wasn't so much price gouging going on, the "cheap" products would lose popularity.

 

[ellesea]

It's a shame the moderators took down the link I put up at the very start of this thread. It led to an interview with a professor at the City University of Hong Kong who had been researching working conditions in Chinese clothes factories. What he was saying is that in China, it's actually getting harder and harder to find people to work for such little pay, and because of this, factories are being forced to resort to child labour.

Salary expectations in China have risen. Meanwhile, the brands are putting pressure on their Chinese suppliers to deliver goods faster, with shorter production runs and higher standards of social compliance. But at the same time, they want the goods to be the same price or cheaper. And because of this, the work conditions are actually getting worse, and factories are asking themselves if they can really afford to make the dirt cheap stuff that their customers are pushing them for.

timwin, there is always more than one side to the story. if you even look at WHO is producing this article, you may see that. i am not saying every person from hong kong is against mainland china or that the professor was wrong, but there is a lot of bitterness and resentment in that region because ever since the 97 takeover from britain, hong kong's economy has suffered because of china's rise. and perhaps....has caused a certain degree of influence.

 

[twilight fairy]

Does anyone know about H&M worker's conditions? etc.?
This thread is making me feel guilty and concerned..because I have not given this important issue much thought.

 

[timwin]

What you are doing is questioning the market economy, on the basis of nothing.

You're right to be suspicious, but not for the reasons that you think. I'm absolutely in favour of globalisation and the market economy in the way that we understand it in the West. I was actually just trying to point people's attention to an article (that I'm not allowed to link to) that gives a slightly different perspective on the way the market economy works in the clothing industry.

The point is that what we think of as a market economy isn't actually a pure market economy. It's restricted by law in accordance with our moral standards. We don't allow children to work in our factories, for example, and we have a limit on the amount of overtime a person is allowed to work. But when we outsource, we're buying into much less regulated markets and different standards on what's acceptable.

The story I can't link to has comments saying that the current trend for cheap clothes made in very short lead times is pushing Chinese factories to employ more child workers and break the local laws on overtime, and that foreign brands can't be sure that they are not sourcing from these kinds of factories.

In China, the law allows for 36 hours of overtime a week. So that means that when we buy clothes these days, there's a higher chance than before that what we buy was made by a Chinese child working more than 14 hours a day for six days a week. The question really is whether we are OK with this.

If you believe in pure market economics, you'll have no problem with this at all, and you'll also be keen to overthrow the unjust laws forcing American and European kids to go to school when they could be putting in 14-hour days in unregulated factories. But I think a lot of people wouldn't agree with you about this.

So what I'm asking really is whether price is the only thing that really matters when we go shopping, or whether we also like to feel that what we buy has been made in a way that's fair and proper. To be honest, I was expecting most people on the forum to say that only price really matters, but I'm surprised and encouraged to see so many comments from people who think otherwise.

 

[Lena]

It's a shame the moderators took down the link I put up at the very start of this thread. It led to an interview with a professor at the City University of Hong Kong who had been researching working conditions in Chinese clothes factories.

timwin, could you please repost the link?
i'll be more than glad to add it up to the begining of this thread, i dont know how/why your link was edited
i absolutely agree on everything you just posted above, we have also been discussing how 'ethical consumption' in now turning up as a full blast niche trend for the market..
it may seem that most people just want cheap trash to fill up their closets and 'show off' but there is always the other end to this, consious ethic motivated consumers who realise that politics goes down to the spending dollar..
so, lose no faith and ...once again,
thanks for bringing this discussion in

this is a really interesting discussion guys.. should we move this at the careers and education forums? it may be much more appropriate there..
please post opinions on this, B)

 

[timwin]

timwin, could you please repost the link?
i'll be more than glad to add it up to the begining of this thread, i dont know how/why your link was edited

OK, the link is here:

 

[softgrey]

you know very well why it was removed...
becuase this is thinly veiled self promotion..
if you'd like to advertise here- then i suggest you contact the owner of the site- andy R

 

[ank9]

I have a feeling that a lot of companies are relocating their production facilities from Asia to Eastern Europe. Production is more expensive, but transportation and taxes are cheaper. For example, I'm pretty sure TopShop has some factories in Romania and Bulgaria as some clothes bearing the removable tag "TopShop Made in Romania/Bulgaria" have surfaced on the market here. I don't know if this is bad or good. Maybe being closer to the EU would make some companies respect some ethical rules...They still pay the workers very little(but rather normal according to these countries small average monthly payment; in Romania it is little less than 300 euros) but the workers are qualified and not underaged. I still doubt the working hours, insurance etc....What do you think of this? Is it normal?

 

[mellowdrama]

I have a feeling that a lot of companies are relocating their production facilities from Asia to Eastern Europe. Production is more expensive, but transportation and taxes are cheaper. For example, I'm pretty sure TopShop has some factories in Romania and Bulgaria as some clothes bearing the removable tag "TopShop Made in Romania/Bulgaria" have surfaced on the market here. I don't know if this is bad or good. Maybe being closer to the EU would make some companies respect some ethical rules...They still pay the workers very little(but rather normal according to these countries small average monthly payment; in Romania it is little less than 300 euros) but the workers are qualified and not underaged. I still doubt the working hours, insurance etc....What do you think of this? Is it normal?

At least Eastern Europe is closer geographically. As for the ethics of factory working, one of the only places to work that paid well in my hometown in Pennsylvania was a Bestform bra factory which, at the time, paid $7.00 an hour. They used to cut and assemble everything there, then it turned into just cutting the lace & elastic, then shipping it to Thailand for sewing/finishing. It really wasn't/isn't a lot of money, but it would do for the economically depressed area that I grew up in. And it was a miserable job, my sister's friend worked there. Mindnumbingly repetitive, with unskilled illiterate mean drunk ferocious women along the line, cutting strips of lace. Work all day, go out drinking, get in fights, drive drunk, beat the kids. Eek!

When I was 17 I had the choice of working at the bra factory or getting the hell out (I got the hell out). This was years ago and now there's no factory at all. It's just not feasible to cut strips of fabric on one side of the world, ship them to the other side of the world for assembly, then ship them back for the market. Moving the supply chain closer together is inevitable, as energy costs soar, the world gets larger.

I would say for Romania/Bulgaria--anything's better than Ceausescu for the former--as long as there's an opportunity for college, physical and social mobility--sure! work in a factory! But also, keep some other dream and goal in mind. And if they're truly stuck working at factories in Eastern Europe, and it is really hellish, there will be struggle, trade unions, head bashing, riots, etcetera. Or at least working all day, going out drinking, fighting, driving drunk, and beating the kids.

Things balance out one way or another.

 

[Lena]

there's been a back and forth production ivestment both in eastern europe and asia, but like you just said, the 'wave' is 'back-to-eu' again..
east europe doesnt support child labour and yes, transportation IS cheaper and much more reliable..
huge eproblem with china on deliveries during the last 10-12 months..
too many orders too little trasportation
so yes, EU is back in the game, nobody can risk loosing (another) a season

 

[caragwapa]

My parents are from hong Kong and china and rather poor backgrounds and a lot of thier friends and relatives do work at these sweat shops for places like gap etc. They don't mind it, its how they are making a living, I think the term "slave labour" is a bit extreme here.

Sorry im all over the place.

I live in the Philippines, near a big export procesing zone and people who manage to get a job there are considered lucky for landing a job which even pays minimum wage. Jobs are pretty hard to get by nowadays here so while the conditions might not be optimal, they at least have job with a minimum wage and I'm sure they wouldn't call it slavery. I'm not sure about the conditions in China though.
And while I can understand that buyers from the States don't want to promote exploitation, if the boycotts do manage to make a dent in the sales, the most likely thing to happen would not be better labor standards but the end of outsourcing which would mean the loss of jobs for thousands of Filipinos.
I think