do you think hipsterism is much different from the punk idealogies? i don't know a ton about punk, so i'm not sure how appropriate this comparison is, but it think punk comes from the same demographic. there are a lot of the young elite who are activists, in the position to be critical. think irony. think karen O?
Punk
- Thread starter Caroline
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The punk movement as a social movement began in Britain (hence the extensive use of tartan in their dress code) and gave shelter to the funancially suffering working class during the recession years of the 70's... People rebelled against Thatcher's strict tax measures and showed their frustration in every possible way. The reason their clothes looked the way they did is exactly because the punks belonged in the lower layers of the working class and were trying to protest against their poor living conditions... This frustration they expressed, came to be the symbol of punk culture and attitude.
Music wise, Iggy Pop and the Stooges can be regarded as the band which had the most profound influence in years to come (until now), along with the likes of Ramones, Clash, Suxsie and the Bunshees, and of course the sex pistols - who due to their collabration with Viv Westwood turned punk into a fashion statement. Viv Westwood was part of the punk movement, since she was also a poor Eastern European immigrant. She was dating Malcom McClaren at the time, who was the Pistols' manger and henece turned her creativity into making clothes for the band.
Patti Smith is a slightly different case, although definitely one of the greatest influences in music and fashion as well. If Iggy Pop is the Godfather of punk, Patti Smith is the Godmother (please note that I am only reffering to those who reached the greater masses as artists and gave it a more "mainstream" sort of appeal)
The Velevet Underground can not be regarded as pure punk... they were making music years before the punk movement began, but they definitely did influence it.... The Velvets belonged to a more avant garde, more glam, NYC kind of underground scene, along with the likes of Andy Warhol et al.
Music wise, Iggy Pop and the Stooges can be regarded as the band which had the most profound influence in years to come (until now), along with the likes of Ramones, Clash, Suxsie and the Bunshees, and of course the sex pistols - who due to their collabration with Viv Westwood turned punk into a fashion statement. Viv Westwood was part of the punk movement, since she was also a poor Eastern European immigrant. She was dating Malcom McClaren at the time, who was the Pistols' manger and henece turned her creativity into making clothes for the band.
Patti Smith is a slightly different case, although definitely one of the greatest influences in music and fashion as well. If Iggy Pop is the Godfather of punk, Patti Smith is the Godmother (please note that I am only reffering to those who reached the greater masses as artists and gave it a more "mainstream" sort of appeal)
The Velevet Underground can not be regarded as pure punk... they were making music years before the punk movement began, but they definitely did influence it.... The Velvets belonged to a more avant garde, more glam, NYC kind of underground scene, along with the likes of Andy Warhol et al.
Iggy had his roots on the Velvets so i guess it all goes back to them, being THE original fathers or punk (as an attitude) including their look..
*Regading Punk of the 80's lets make the distinction between rudeboys/skins and punks cause they used to fight between them, hated each others guts ..they had nothing in common but resourcing in violence (punks were much less violent than skins , punks werent much violent anyway, they chanelled violence more through their sound/image than actual behaviour patterns)
as for Punk image , it was an expression of wanting to make a 'anti-social' statement which was directed in shocking the norms of a 'sleeping' and 'conforted' society, it sure the reason was political/unemployment/authority of the Thatcher years..
it all started going too flat when 'designers' started borrowing from punk, that was the end of the punk era, society was 'embracing' punk as just another 'cute' 'happening' culture which would refresh 'fashion' and bring some money in..
Fashion killed punk and keeps 'killing' it to ths day.
*funny enough i was browsing at Zara just yesterday and saw a whole range of yellow and black pieces, all in a very punk esthetic.. it was at the 'young' section of the store, so i guess this 'nostalgic' version of 'watered down' punk seems destined to stay with us for seasons to come..
*dare say that with the current global socio/economic situation, punk -or a fresh kind of punk- is expected to rise soon, hopefully in a new esthetic format
have you seen those kids with xtra long-knee length 'crouch' trousers (not talking of the skater/sporty kind of styles of few season before)?
they are so 'happening' all over europe.. socio-analysts are stressing that in a time when moms/dads borrow the styles of their daughters/sons, kids are 'forced' to create a completly new image which they can call their own, hence finding shelter in the new 'extreme' styles of today (mainly those new kind of trousers) .
Most teens sporting them insist that those trousers may not be too 'cute' but at least they secure that their parents wont 'spoil' the look, since mom&dad wouldnt really dare going down the street wearing those trousers.
for stylistic evidence, try fw05.06 PDF's from my good Berlin friends, butterflysoulfire at www.btfsf.com
*Regading Punk of the 80's lets make the distinction between rudeboys/skins and punks cause they used to fight between them, hated each others guts ..they had nothing in common but resourcing in violence (punks were much less violent than skins , punks werent much violent anyway, they chanelled violence more through their sound/image than actual behaviour patterns)
as for Punk image , it was an expression of wanting to make a 'anti-social' statement which was directed in shocking the norms of a 'sleeping' and 'conforted' society, it sure the reason was political/unemployment/authority of the Thatcher years..
it all started going too flat when 'designers' started borrowing from punk, that was the end of the punk era, society was 'embracing' punk as just another 'cute' 'happening' culture which would refresh 'fashion' and bring some money in..
Fashion killed punk and keeps 'killing' it to ths day.
*funny enough i was browsing at Zara just yesterday and saw a whole range of yellow and black pieces, all in a very punk esthetic.. it was at the 'young' section of the store, so i guess this 'nostalgic' version of 'watered down' punk seems destined to stay with us for seasons to come..
*dare say that with the current global socio/economic situation, punk -or a fresh kind of punk- is expected to rise soon, hopefully in a new esthetic format
have you seen those kids with xtra long-knee length 'crouch' trousers (not talking of the skater/sporty kind of styles of few season before)?
they are so 'happening' all over europe.. socio-analysts are stressing that in a time when moms/dads borrow the styles of their daughters/sons, kids are 'forced' to create a completly new image which they can call their own, hence finding shelter in the new 'extreme' styles of today (mainly those new kind of trousers) .
Most teens sporting them insist that those trousers may not be too 'cute' but at least they secure that their parents wont 'spoil' the look, since mom&dad wouldnt really dare going down the street wearing those trousers.
for stylistic evidence, try fw05.06 PDF's from my good Berlin friends, butterflysoulfire at www.btfsf.com
I have to agree with you on this! Although, the Velvets in my mind are one of the keystones of rock - not just punk, while the stooges (although also one of the keystones of rock) had a more direct influence on the punk movement - and still until today, iggy pop is regarded as punk.
However, this will lead us in a very deep discussion (and a somehow pointless one if I may add) since all of the different music movements originated in rock are simply influenced by any kind of good rock band, which definitely includes the Velvet Underground... otherwise, how would you categorise Joy Division? They are influenced by both the Velvets and the Stooges, yet they brought their music in a different level, to what is known as New Wave... but aren't they a bit punk too? Or , how about The Cure for that matter? And later Nirvana (which is a regarded as grunge band), or even the Strokes and the White Stripes...
My point being, that when we are reffering to something so groundbreaking as the Velvet Underground, it is difficult for musicians who follow not to be influenced by them, no matter what kind of rock music they are involved into... hence, it will be very difficult to find a major rock band that followed (belonging to any genre of rock music) which has not been even at the slightest influenced by them... or even a music movement for that matter...
travolta said:i know more about the early punk look in south london (lewisham) -- rude boys, but mostly the skinheads, both from a working class background.
this look was elaborated on by the punks
Travolta, your name and avatar are so funny next to this picture and in this thread!!!!! I just noticed it and made me smile!
(I mean this in the nicest way)
yes melt you are right, the Velvets were a catalyst band for more than punk or rock 
to reply to travolta:
*hipsters are completly and absolutely a different (and older) tribe than punks
i'm not talking strictly image/styles here.. just on the whole ideology
to reply to travolta:
*hipsters are completly and absolutely a different (and older) tribe than punks
i'm not talking strictly image/styles here.. just on the whole ideology
interesting thread and discussions!
there is a great cbgb's documentary called 'house of the rising punk', did anyone see it?
also i'd like to add some german punk roots (book recommendation 'verschwende deine jugend' by jürgen teipel
1978 or before
gudrun gut
:
franz bielmeyer
1978
peter hein, gabi delgado, franz bielmeyer:
there is a great cbgb's documentary called 'house of the rising punk', did anyone see it?
also i'd like to add some german punk roots (book recommendation 'verschwende deine jugend' by jürgen teipel
1978 or before
gudrun gut
:
franz bielmeyer
1978
peter hein, gabi delgado, franz bielmeyer:
oh and i also recommed greil marcus' 'lipstick traces: a secret history of the 20th century' because it traces the line from dada to punk.
more german punk: daf with wolfgang spellmann and gabi delgado in 1979
jäki eldorado
he got famous also for licking iggy pop's leg
more german punk: daf with wolfgang spellmann and gabi delgado in 1979
jäki eldorado
he got famous also for licking iggy pop's leg
^all pictures from www.gesellschaftsinseln.de
instant karma for those great pics anna
loved gurdun, Jaki and OF COURSE BLIXA (whom i've met years ago)
he still is as much the punk gentleman that he ever was and he rocks..
played in Athens just few weeks ago
and what about ...Nina Hagen?
great performer, great style and a punk by definition no?
loved gurdun, Jaki and OF COURSE BLIXA (whom i've met years ago)
he still is as much the punk gentleman that he ever was and he rocks..
played in Athens just few weeks ago
and what about
...Nina Hagen? great performer, great style and a punk by definition no?
Last edited by a moderator:
Nina's punkiest version probably early 80s
Nina in Amsterdam
Nina Hagen treedt op in Amsterdam
Gepubliceerd op woensdag 03 december 2003
link http://www.planet.nl/planet/show/id=74766/contentid=424648/sc=1dc73d
all Nina's photos through yahoo search
Nina in Amsterdam
Nina Hagen treedt op in Amsterdam
link http://www.planet.nl/planet/show/id=74766/contentid=424648/sc=1dc73d
all Nina's photos through yahoo search
PrinceOfCats
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There seems to be a confusion about punks and punk icons here. Music was the dominant artform of the punk movement - music informed punk and later on punk informed music. However, musicians are not punks, they can be 'punk icons'. Lou Reed is a millionaire - of course he's not a punk. Even Johnny Rotten is doing Channel 5 Documentaries these days.
Interestingly, hardcore death metal, the nineties equivalent of punk, originated where I live, in Newcastle. This comes as no suprise - Newcastle was an extremely deprived Victorian, working-class city in the nineties (it still has some of the the highest unemployment and levels of non-firearms related violent crime in the country).
Interestingly, hardcore death metal, the nineties equivalent of punk, originated where I live, in Newcastle. This comes as no suprise - Newcastle was an extremely deprived Victorian, working-class city in the nineties (it still has some of the the highest unemployment and levels of non-firearms related violent crime in the country).
chelseagirl
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Kimkhuu said:You're gonna need some serious backup. Most teen mags are promoting the new "punk" style and often featuring the likes of Avril Lavigne and Ashlee, the new queen of punk.
How scary is that?
I've been into the punk/skinhead scene for about 13 years....that crap seriously makes me want to vomit.
Blixa! Bad Seeds will never be the same without him... Lena, I was so frustrated that I did not manage to see him when he played Athens... thank god that Athens is always on his list for gigs... he has quite a fan base there doesn't he?
Diamond Star
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melt977 said:
Although, the Velvets in my mind are one of the keystones of rock - not just punk, while the stooges (although also one of the keystones of rock) had a more direct influence on the punk movement - and still until today, iggy pop is regarded as punk.
However, this will lead us in a very deep discussion (and a somehow pointless one if I may add) since all of the different music movements originated in rock are simply influenced by any kind of good rock band, which definitely includes the Velvet Underground... otherwise, how would you categorise Joy Division? They are influenced by both the Velvets and the Stooges, yet they brought their music in a different level, to what is known as New Wave... but aren't they a bit punk too? Or , how about The Cure for that matter? And later Nirvana (which is a regarded as grunge band), or even the Strokes and the White Stripes...
My point being, that when we are reffering to something so groundbreaking as the Velvet Underground, it is difficult for musicians who follow not to be influenced by them, no matter what kind of rock music they are involved into... hence, it will be very difficult to find a major rock band that followed (belonging to any genre of rock music) which has not been even at the slightest influenced by them... or even a music movement for that matter...
Absolutely,even Morrissey was a fan of the velvets,and I'm sure influenced by them to a degree.
