[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]eb[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] What did you think it was?
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]RF[/FONT] I thought the theme of the play was finding out how every disparate thing, adjusted properly, rhymes with everything else. But there's also another theme, which I've discovered in the last two days: how thinking is destroyed if it has a subject. Because whatever it's thinking about eats the previous thinking. This thinking, which must not be allowed to crystallize into a form where it seizes a subject and absorbs its quality, has to do with a kind of Nirvana, an emptiness that the play is about: that emptiness, that kind of consciousness without an object. As usual, last week I was ready to call this play off. All of my plays reach a point where I say, "Oh my God, I can't let anybody see this because I'm too embarrassed." And now it's finally starting to come together. It's coming together in a way that I've always dreamed of, where something is so light, so airy, that it's just exhilarating. I'm always telling my casts, "Look, I'm not putting my work down, because I think my work is great, but you must remember that we are doing the highest, most refined minor art. If you think you're doing what people think of as major, heavyweight art, if you play it that way, it's not going to work." It's a wisp of smoke that is going to be the most ecstatic experience of your life, but it disappears. You must not let it, in your performance, take on the emotionally committed aspects of ponderous, heavily performed art, like that idiot Ingmar Bergman. It's the opposite of that. Actors must[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]—[/FONT]"Oh this is a passionate emotion"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]—[/FONT]throw it away. "Oh, this is so funny"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]—[/FONT]throw it away. Throw it away. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]eb[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Well, this seems grounded in Eastern philosophy.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]RF[/FONT] But I don't want to push that either, because it's not Eastern. I use to read a fair amount of the stuff, but I read everything. I don't think of myself that way at all. I think of myself as this New York, Jewish, fallible, sloppy person, who has sharper moments of consciousness and insight that somehow don't redeem the entire life; because in normal daily life, I'm still who I am. I did eight plays in Paris. At one point, I was seriously thinking of moving there. I loved France because it seemed like the manifestation of all these things. But I began to realize that it wouldn't work because I am this adolescent, stupid American, like we all are. I had to get my hands back into that rich loam of goofy stupidity and let that collide with my pretensions at being a clear, luminous, cerebral, Eastern-Zen-French intellectual.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]eb[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] The plays always have, as an objective, dismantling the normal way of looking at things. You once said that a tourist sees a place better than anyone else, because a tourist is really looking with eyes open, and that's what you want. You want the theater to be a gym-like environment, which sounds Brechtian. I like that idea. What is your life? Could you characterize what Richard Foreman's life is like on a day-to-day basis? Instead of what's going on in the plays . . .
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]RF[/FONT] I have two lives. I have one life when I'm directing a play, and in that life, I'm an alive, dominant, electric, funny person. But when I'm not directing a play, I'm lying down at home most of the day, dozing off, reading little snatches of this book or that book, jotting down a few lines, watching "General Hospital" on TV. I'm a totally lethargic, passive person who, through that passivity, is generating texts a little everyday, but spending most of the time wasting away. As far as the kind of person I am, you'd have to ask my wife, Kate [Manheim] and I'm sure she would say my plays haven't improved me.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]eb[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Kate is an actress who wasn't an actress when she started in your plays, and who actually created a tremendous style onstage that was amazing to watch.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]RF[/FONT] She had a profound influence on the direction of my work.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]eb Can you be more specific?
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]RF[/FONT] A profound influence in making it more comical, and in making it essentially more accessible to audiences, because Kate would prefer that we do "I Love Lucy." She always wanted the scenes to be funnier and livelier. She would insist that scenes be rewritten or added so that she could show off this, that, or the other thing. I would say, "Sure, why not?" because I believe that art is made out of the contingencies of the situation. So I would respond to those contingencies. Also, the nudity that made us notorious in the beginning happened because Kate wanted to do it. I wouldn't have had the nerve.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]eb[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] That's interesting. I always wondered, How does this guy have the gall to ask these actresses to take their clothes off? Of course, it was a different SoHo in those days, and if you walked around the neighborhood you would run into all the people in your plays. Now Soho is a kind of world's fair, mini-mart shopping mall. I think I see something here. As an actor, I feel most alive when I'm acting, when I'm onstage and I'm in that moment[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]—[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]more so than when I'm the real me. The rest of the time, I'm just uncomfortable. You deal with that discomfort, with that lethargy. You described. . .
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]RF[/FONT] I just avoid the world.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]eb[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] But when you're being the director, Richard Foreman, it sounds like a very exciting place to be.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]RF[/FONT] However, I distrust that part of myself. I think the discoveries that I've really made come through that writer's passivity. As a director, I'm not as adventurous as I am a writer. As a writer, my guard is down, I'm just letting all the sloppy stuff come through. As a director, I'm anal-retentive and I want to clean everything up and make everything look powerful, like a well-oiled machine. I wish, sometimes, that I had the courage to stand up in front of my cast and act like the inarticulate bumbling slob I am around the house. I'm exaggerating of course, but still, there is that dichotomy.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]eb[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Would somebody have to be an intellectual to come in and enjoy your work? I'll put it another way. Does the audience have to know what you're thinking?
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]RF[/FONT] I don't think so. The basic thing is to create a certain rhythm[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]—[/FONT]visually, orally, etcetera[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]—[/FONT]that seems ecstatic. The materials contributing to that rhythm could be anything. I happen to live in the world of books that I'm reading, in the world of theories that I'm learning about, as well as the stuff from the mass media and the street. I don't think it matters, because almost anything can be a substitute. Now, my sensibility is such that I can only choose and refer to the things that I know about. These things may or may not be relevant to your life, but once you start spinning the top, it's the hum and the magic of that spin that is the fascinating thing; and that's what I'm trying to create in the theater.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]eb[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] And you're making different tops as you make each play, or is each play the same hum?
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]RF[/FONT] They vary slightly, but I have to admit, in a sense I'm always returning to the same subject. In the same way that Francis Bacon is always returning to the same subject, in that many poets are always returning to the same subject, I have one subject.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]eb[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Well, that's an art attitude, what we think of as Art with a capital "A."
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]RF[/FONT] It is the slight variations within a given style, that's what is interesting about art. Yeah, that's a very aesthetic, elitist position, but what the hell can I do? That's where I am.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]eb[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] You're an elitist aesthete.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]RF[/FONT] Yeah.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]eb[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Well, that happens. I heard that Coppola, on Dracula, purposely cut out the best-acted scenes. He wanted everything to be as flat as possible, so that he could keep it at that distance.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]RF[/FONT] Well, that's exactly what I do. The actors are always in agony because I cut half the play by the time we open, and they always think I'm cutting the best parts. But I love to get to that level of white noise, that, to me, is related to an aesthetic high. The question is can you reach that white noise, that aesthetic high, without those very specific emotional things to identify with. Because once that dominates the play, that's what I tell them to throw out. It has to be there, so they can react against it, so it can inform them, somehow, and then it's thrown out. You've got to have faith that through the structure of this whole piece and the structure of what's happening, you can play one thing all evening. You can find the one emotional thing to play that is not boring, that if you see it again, and again, and again, you never get enough of it.[/FONT]
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