Sabato De Sarno - Designer

[NoInvite]

"WeE dIdN'T gRoW iN cHiNa" of course if your product isn't great.
Hermes stands the test of time because even without the shows or marketing people still want the products.

Who said Ancora red will be a big hit?

 

[Vikingtop]

I think you have to differentiate! It is true, china economical situation slows down luxury demand. Not only gucci suffers.

Of course some brands stay resilient. But look at them. Hermes builded ist image over decades! Extreemly long term and consistent. A success that is difficult to replicate. Maybe only Chanel has a similar resiliance.

But also lvmh revenue slowed down.

Gucci has always been best when presenting stuff at the top of zeitgeist. All that tradition gucci items ( Bamboo , Jackie) have too little substance, for me...

Gucci had the chance to develop a consitent brand image after tom ford....
Now it is gone.

YSL and Bottega Veneta, have developed a more consistent brand image. Nevertheless YSL stopped to grow, BV stays resilient.......no great successes also. Why might that happen? It is not only gucci alone that has problems..

 

[Lola701]

I find it unfair to compare Gucci to Hermes because their structure is not the same at all even if they had at some point a common heritage in savoir faire.

It’s simple, to bet everything on China is dangerous for anyone. Those brands do need to have a strong and steady base in historic markets. Those are the influential markets as I have always said. China is not a leading voice in terms of influence, even with their spending power.

Everybody is slowing down or staying steady. Gucci and Burberry are the only ones decreasing. And yes, it’s a question of strategy.

The problem with Gucci is that now, they almost have to redo everything to catch up.

Gucci product line vs Louis Vuitton right now is shocking. The most recent women’s collection for LV looks so lux, modern and fashionable. Their bags are also way more desirable than they used to be imo and they have so many SKUs that everyone can find something they like. Gucci website offerings on the other hand look straight off canal street. Seriously. So so so so so bad

One thing that Nicolas did during his tenure, and he touched on that in Paris Match if I remember, was streamlining Vuitton’s offer in terms of products.

Vuitton had a very extensive reference of bags when Marc Jacobs was at the helm. Now they have reduced and redesigned the bags. And they have add some Nicolas’s best sellers as part of the permanent line.

Today there are literally 10 bags (at least) that Vuitton can sell, at different price points. The same with shoes. They have best selling shoes too. Vuitton can literally stay without a CD for 1 year like Gucci, do campaigns with their ambassadors with those products and they will sell. Why? Because they are beautifully designed, they have a sense of classicism and they will create a whole story telling around the Art of Travel with them.

The last great collection of accessories from Gucci was Frida’s FW2014. That whole collection should have been the blueprint for their line-up of products and should have been the base for the permanent collection.

Gucci last 2 great products were imo the princetown mules and the Dyonisus bag. They should have been part of that collection. Gucci used to have a great history in silk scarves. Travel, jet-set, horse-driving has been part of their narrative. They have the ugliest luggage line.

It’s insane to think that Ancora man’s contribution to the brand is a color! He did an unecessary redesign of the Jackie (the redesign already in place of the clasp was great), did a whole thing about that Ancora red, Ancora song but didn’t even designed an ANCORA BAG!

They put a CEO there but it turns out that maybe he is not aware of anything. We had talks about elevation and yet we got influencers like campaigns with Gucci products drowning under the water…

 

[Creative]

I think you have to differentiate! It is true, china economical situation slows down luxury demand. Not only gucci suffers.

Of course some brands stay resilient. But look at them. Hermes builded ist image over decades! Extreemly long term and consistent. A success that is difficult to replicate. Maybe only Chanel has a similar resiliance.

But also lvmh revenue slowed down.

Gucci has always been best when presenting stuff at the top of zeitgeist. All that tradition gucci items ( Bamboo , Jackie) have too little substance, for me...

Gucci had the chance to develop a consitent brand image after tom ford....
Now it is gone.

YSL and Bottega Veneta, have developed a more consistent brand image. Nevertheless YSL stopped to grow, BV stays resilient.......no great successes also. Why might that happen? It is not only gucci alone that has problems..

Let’s also be honest, traditionally it’s been about hype. If your brand is “now”, “hot” and “cool”, you sell. It doesn’t matter if Chinese are not buying, Miu Miu is still doing great everywhere. It also has to do with cycles in the fashion brands.

It’s true that luxury brands (Chanel and Hermès) are more stable and not everyone can and should be them. But if you thinks right in a big maison it usually works. It’s not like they are up and coming designers.

 

[tourbillions]

I find it unfair to compare Gucci to Hermes because their structure is not the same at all even if they had at some point a common heritage in savoir faire.

It’s simple, to bet everything on China is dangerous for anyone. Those brands do need to have a strong and steady base in historic markets. Those are the influential markets as I have always said. China is not a leading voice in terms of influence, even with their spending power.

Everybody is slowing down or staying steady. Gucci and Burberry are the only ones decreasing. And yes, it’s a question of strategy.

The problem with Gucci is that now, they almost have to redo everything to catch up.

One thing that Nicolas did during his tenure, and he touched on that in Paris Match if I remember, was streamlining Vuitton’s offer in terms of products.

Vuitton had a very extensive reference of bags when Marc Jacobs was at the helm. Now they have reduced and redesigned the bags. And they have add some Nicolas’s best sellers as part of the permanent line.

Today there are literally 10 bags (at least) that Vuitton can sell, at different price points. The same with shoes. They have best selling shoes too. Vuitton can literally stay without a CD for 1 year like Gucci, do campaigns with their ambassadors with those products and they will sell. Why? Because they are beautifully designed, they have a sense of classicism and they will create a whole story telling around the Art of Travel with them.

The last great collection of accessories from Gucci was Frida’s FW2014. That whole collection should have been the blueprint for their line-up of products and should have been the base for the permanent collection.

Gucci last 2 great products were imo the princetown mules and the Dyonisus bag. They should have been part of that collection. Gucci used to have a great history in silk scarves. Travel, jet-set, horse-driving has been part of their narrative. They have the ugliest luggage line.

It’s insane to think that Ancora man’s contribution to the brand is a color! He did an unecessary redesign of the Jackie (the redesign already in place of the clasp was great), did a whole thing about that Ancora red, Ancora song but didn’t even designed an ANCORA BAG!

They put a CEO there but it turns out that maybe he is not aware of anything. We had talks about elevation and yet we got influencers like campaigns with Gucci products drowning under the water…

its also important to note how Nicolas is able to refresh his vuitton every season while sticking to a certain aesthetic. so his past collections wont really be outdated but at the same time his new ones will offer something new for their clients closet. If michele was able to do this with his gucci, they could have grown a lot further.

its gonna be a long struggle for gucci unfortunately. it will be a while before they find a star designer that will both give them the hype they need and for that to translate to sales.

Hedi can save it maybe... Since Gucci needs a overhaul and he is quite good at that. One of the few houses i wont mind having hedi. He will streamline the products and make a blueprint for the future cd.

 

[yslforever]

Gucci product line vs Louis Vuitton right now is shocking. The most recent women’s collection for LV looks so lux, modern and fashionable. Their bags are also way more desirable than they used to be imo and they have so many SKUs that everyone can find something they like. Gucci website offerings on the other hand look straight off canal street. Seriously. So so so so so bad

So I am a regular in Marrakech for obvious reasons, and the souks are like Canal street x 100 for counterfeit, and I know a couple of owners. You know you're down the gutter when they stop copying you; it's all Casablanca, Amiri, Pharrell's LV (even the western collection is already there) and tons of Miu Miu & Prada right now, but no Gucci in sight.

 

[Lola701]

its also important to note how Nicolas is able to refresh his vuitton every season while sticking to a certain aesthetic. so his past collections wont really be outdated but at the same time his new ones will offer something new for their clients closet. If michele was able to do this with his gucci, they could have grown a lot further.

its gonna be a long struggle for gucci unfortunately. it will be a while before they find a star designer that will both give them the hype they need and for that to translate to sales.

Hedi can save it maybe... Since Gucci needs a overhaul and he is quite good at that. One of the few houses i wont mind having hedi. He will streamline the products and make a blueprint for the future cd.

I bet we can’t escape Hedi’s name in any thread lol.
As if after YSL and Celine, we need another another orphan brand of Hedi.
There are plenty of talented people in the industry. If you have a good designer who is a leader and a great collaborator, it can work. JW Anderson did the rebranding of Loewe with M&M and it worked wonderfully. They did a whole overhaul how it should be done actually.
In terms of project, it’s maybe one of the best of these past few years because it was at the service of the house. A lot of products were redesigned and packaging adapted to make sense with the new identity of the brand.

I think we should exclude the name Hedi Slimane with anything Kering-related. It will never happen again. So it doesn’t even make sense lol.

But It all starts with Pinault. Arnault had a vision of what Dior and Vuitton were. Now they have become lifestyle brands. You have to make sacrifices, take risks, go against the trends, stand out.

I also believe in smooth and sustainable growth. The Miu Miu growth, for instance, is scary. Why not working on desirability and scarcity rather than being a supermaket and let buyers get 10 pieces of the same bag?

Short term strategies by short-brained people.

The same!
And the thing about MiuMiu is that this is not their first ride. When they moved from Milan to Paris to establish themselves as a proper brand and not a « Prada diffusion line », they had their IT period.
They went to Paris in a aggressive mode, they had Carine styling their first campaign for their first Parisian collection, they started to do « coups » like having Lindsay Lohan on campaigns and I think they had a good 8/10 years ride. The bags were really big in 2008, but they had shoes and iconic clothes and built a kind of cult following.

It died when Katie Grand went back as a stylist and the brand lost it spirit for me (I remember that terrible show with Naomi and Uma Thurman). And now, they are having a moment again.

Unfortunately, all I see is a bunch of basics with logos everywhere and higher prices. The mass hasn’t catch on MiuMiu yet but I fear that the brand keeps betting on logos like the big sister with that triangle everywhere on every product!

Because MiuMiu reads very Fashion and not Luxury yet.

 

[Creative]

I bet we can’t escape Hedi’s name in any thread lol.
As if after YSL and Celine, we need another another orphan brand of Hedi.
There are plenty of talented people in the industry. If you have a good designer who is a leader and a great collaborator, it can work. JW Anderson did the rebranding of Loewe with M&M and it worked wonderfully. They did a whole overhaul how it should be done actually.
In terms of project, it’s maybe one of the best of these past few years because it was at the service of the house. A lot of products were redesigned and packaging adapted to make sense with the new identity of the brand.

I think we should exclude the name Hedi Slimane with anything Kering-related. It will never happen again. So it doesn’t even make sense lol.

But It all starts with Pinault. Arnault had a vision of what Dior and Vuitton were. Now they have become lifestyle brands. You have to make sacrifices, take risks, go against the trends, stand out.


The same!
And the thing about MiuMiu is that this is not their first ride. When they moved from Milan to Paris to establish themselves as a proper brand and not a « Prada diffusion line », they had their IT period.
They went to Paris in a aggressive mode, they had Carine styling their first campaign for their first Parisian collection, they started to do « coups » like having Lindsay Lohan on campaigns and I think they had a good 8/10 years ride. The bags were really big in 2008, but they had shoes and iconic clothes and built a kind of cult following.

It died when Katie Grand went back as a stylist and the brand lost it spirit for me (I remember that terrible show with Naomi and Uma Thurman). And now, they are having a moment again.

Unfortunately, all I see is a bunch of basics with logos everywhere and higher prices. The mass hasn’t catch on MiuMiu yet but I fear that the brand keeps betting on logos like the big sister with that triangle everywhere on every product!

Because MiuMiu reads very Fashion and not Luxury yet.

I actually don’t understand MiuMiu’s success. I mean, the product is not ugly, but it’s just super basic. I don’t know, to me it’s hard to explain.

 

[PDFSD]

I actually don’t understand MiuMiu’s success. I mean, the product is not ugly, but it’s just super basic. I don’t know, to me it’s hard to explain.

It's the Lolita lifestyle idea that nobody does so complete asv part of a brand's DNA.... its young sexy cute you can be nerdy girl but also sexy in it and it's all easy to wear and touch of logo... its more insta friendly then prada also they play well in the young girls world adolescence rebel but classy and intelligent idea yet pop as well ...its the perfect BCBG teen brand Celine plays also a touch with this they even share same lotita ambassadors (daughter of famous actors or sexy it girls ) on and off lol

Crucially the styling with Lotta clicked well with their first hit show and acted as a relaunch /hype this played 1000000 % in the role of building a new clear vision for MIU MIU that has now continuity in school girl preppy style but yet more edgy side for the brand to be hot now....... their just cashing in before the next crash again ...like Lola mentioned the brand was a hit before.

But the i dont think it will last for long it's too much trendy till next stylist influence after Lotta has success remains to be seen.

 

[LadyJunon]

I hate when they go: in this challenging and fast changing socioeconomic environment…

Girl, your product design is garbage, your image is not relevant, the quality is sh!t, your campaigns are ugly and your creative director has the depth of a little pond. What did you expect, my dear?

Lots to executives place blame on the "challenging and fast changing socioeconomic environment" to appear more human in bad eras and more triumphant in good eras. To add to that, so many of these brands were fighting over the same demograpics of the same market using the same tricks and are shocked that it caused a mass desensitization. That demographic has now matured and have moved onto desire something else. Gucci would've been fine if they appointed Macco or Renne (RIP) and did a more conventionally pretty version of Michele's Gucci.

I also believe in smooth and sustainable growth. The Miu Miu growth, for instance, is scary. Why not working on desirability and scarcity rather than being a supermaket and let buyers get 10 pieces of the same bag?

Short term strategies by short-brained people.

Revenue 2009-23 in EUR:
FY09: 252m
FY10: 353m
FY11: 441m
FY12: 513m
FY13: 519m
FY14: 527m
FY15: 564m
FY16: 515m
FY17: 459m
FY18: 453m
FY19: 450m
FY20: 329m
FY21: 347m
FY22: 432m
FY23: 649m
Miu Miu's sudden growth is scary, because of how brands tend to act when experiencing these meteoric rises. Miu Miu made 530m in H1 and they could possibly surpass the 1b threshold this year. Miu Miu is doing very well, because its shift with Lotta is very adjacent to the rise of quirky, girly aesthetics following the pandemic, becoming an indie "quirky-girly" brand with the financial support of a mid-sized corporate brand.. Chances are, they're going to overexpose Miu Miu and stuff the brand with "filler" products to the point that customers experience brand fatigue.

 

[yslforever]

Lots to executives place blame on the "challenging and fast changing socioeconomic environment" to appear more human in bad eras and more triumphant in good eras. To add to that, so many of these brands were fighting over the same demograpics of the same market using the same tricks and are shocked that it caused a mass desensitization. That demographic has now matured and have moved onto desire something else. Gucci would've been fine if they appointed Macco or Renne (RIP) and did a more conventionally pretty version of Michele's Gucci.

Revenue 2009-23 in EUR:
FY09: 252m
FY10: 353m
FY11: 441m
FY12: 513m
FY13: 519m
FY14: 527m
FY15: 564m
FY16: 515m
FY17: 459m
FY18: 453m
FY19: 450m
FY20: 329m
FY21: 347m
FY22: 432m
FY23: 649m
Miu Miu's sudden growth is scary, because of how brands tend to act when experiencing these meteoric rises. Miu Miu made 530m in H1 and they could possibly surpass the 1b threshold this year. Miu Miu is doing very well, because its shift with Lotta is very adjacent to the rise of quirky, girly aesthetics following the pandemic, becoming an indie "quirky-girly" brand with the financial support of a mid-sized corporate brand.. Chances are, they're going to overexpose Miu Miu and stuff the brand with "filler" products to the point that customers experience brand fatigue.

Thanks for the figures,
I don't find Miu Miu growth scary, it looks like they are back on the tracks of their 2012 - 2015 period after 7 years of diet, but the potential for a "quirky-girlie" brand is very limited, especially at those retail prices, and those customers, so well-described earlier, will NOT be loyal.
Valentino will offer some quirky-girlie very soon, that's Alessandro core-design, and we had a taste of it and they will get much more from Chloe too (if they want to be more womanly), they'll stay with Miu Miu for awhile but... it will change quickly.

I am just curious about the new bags line-up Gucci has announced for September, that will make or break Sabato more that his show.

 

[Alquimista]

Michele's aesthetics were not for everybody but he knew how to craft a narrative. His presentations were very evocative.

Gucci is a feeling would not be a problem if Sabato defined that feeling. "Gucci is excitement" or "Gucci is a feeling of..." But Gucci is a feeling tells us nothing. It's unfinished, underdeveloped.

 

[PDFSD]

Thanks for the figures,
I don't find Miu Miu growth scary, it looks like they are back on the tracks of their 2012 - 2015 period after 7 years of diet, but the potential for a "quirky-girlie" brand is very limited, especially at those retail prices, and those customers, so well-described earlier, will NOT be loyal.
Valentino will offer some quirky-girlie very soon, that's Alessandro core-design, and we had a taste of it and they will get much more from Chloe too (if they want to be more womanly), they'll stay with Miu Miu for awhile but... it will change quickly.

I am just curious about the new bags line-up Gucci has announced for September, that will make or break Sabato more that his show.

The new bag guru from ysl that moved now to Gucci thanks to the brilliant insight of Francesca Bellettini (lol)
will just do the same things: gold hardwear logo and chains and quiltings .... streamlined to be sexy version of Chanel (meets TF Gucci )bags like he already did at YSL. just now with G or Horsebites ...Voila!!!!!

 

[lookatme]

^^Ugh…those bags are so pedestrian and midmarket.

 

[reese06]

Sabato has quite the uphill battle if you can even call it that. I think at this point it’s just more of a when he will be gone. Is it plausible that Gucci is interviewing now for their next CD and planning their strategy?

The brand overshot their course correction of Michele’s era.

^^Ugh…those bags are so pedestrian and midmarket.

Welcome to mass market luxury under a he suits. You just need to decide which brand image you resonate with more because all the products are the same.

Gucci has no image or “feeling” right now so not sure what a new bag designer can bring

 

[lookatme]

Welcome to mass market luxury under a he suits. You just need to decide which brand image you resonate with more because all the products are the same.

Gucci has no image or “feeling” right now so not sure what a new bag designer can bring

So true. Each brand has a sort of “mood” or “image,” but at the end of the day, they’re all churning out the exact same products. There is no real distinction anymore.

 

[yslforever]

^^Ugh…those bags are so pedestrian and midmarket.

Midmarket are their market, they can't honesty compete with niche brands or Hermès/Chanel.
You know Anthony RTW is not selling well, or at all actually.

 

[Kimihiro]

Midmarket are their market, they can't honesty compete with niche brands or Hermès/Chanel.
You know Anthony RTW is not selling well, or at all actually.

I hate the recent YSL bags, they already look ‘outlet ready’ fresh in the stores. There’s no luxe feeling with them.

So their RTW sales already evaporated? Do they still have Hedi-era Permanent Collection?

 

[yslforever]

Do they still have Hedi-era Permanent Collection?

A few denims, bombers, and tuxedos but not much more.
RTW customers are switching back and forth with Celine, to the surprise of no one. The FW collection, with a large amount of lingerie or sheer pieces, is hard to sell, and I have heard from sale directors their best customers are also jumping on the Chloe train, which is also very Parisian but less sexy, so easier to wear, and which has a fashion moment right now too.
That's the July report...

 

[Lola701]

^^Ugh…those bags are so pedestrian and midmarket.

Unfortunately, I will blame Hedi for that. YSL, under Pilati still had a very distinctive line of products. Yes, you can’t re-invent shapes but the Muse 2, the Uptown, the downtown, the besace, the easy, the roady, the Chyc, the Tribute, The Mombasa and even the cassandre logo cabas were good bags.

Don’t get me wrong, a lot of those bags needed a bit of redesign to make them modern but they had the opportunity to make something out of it.

Hedi came, he did his own spin on the Birkin, which is the De Jour, a great bag and then, a bunch of 80’s Chanel-like bags with a Cassandre logo.

At Celine, it’s the same formula, the same bags almost with subtle changes but the same Triomphe logo. The 16 is maybe the real stand out design he put out.

The worst brand is maybe Balenciaga. They had such a cohesive line of bags and luggage’s under NG. It started to go downhill with Wang and now it’s in hell with Demna.

Vaccarello tried but it shows that it’s not an interest of his. But when you have good bags in the archives, just pull something and make it modern.

Ancora should do the same.

MGC’s biggest coup was to bring back the Saddle. Now, her standout creation, the book tote is in a big controversy but most of her bags are Outlet ready…When Raf really did a great jobs at Dior for the bags.